Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dissolution]

The alleged chase is detailed in Rachel Jeantel's testimony, which is evidence by any legal standard. That you personally disbelieve the testimony does not automatically render that evidence into a state of non-existence.

Rachel Jeantel doesn't detail any sort of chase, even if you believe her testimony.
She doesn't claim that Zimmerman chased Martin, nor does she say that Martin claimed that he was being chased.

No, there is also the evidence contained in Detective Serino's report. It has already been quoted and cited in this thread. Please feel free to peruse that last few posts if it helps to refresh your memory.

This is clearly wrong.
Serino said that Zimmerman failed to volunteer information, not that he withheld any when he was asked for it.

 

[johnny karate]

Rachel Jeantel doesn't detail any sort of chase, even if you believe her testimony.
She doesn't claim that Zimmerman chased Martin, nor does she say that Martin claimed that he was being chased.

She describes telling Martin to run, Martin then a short while later being out of breath and telling her that Zimmerman was right behind him. Sounds like a chase to me.

Now, you may disagree. And that's fine.

But, the evidence for the above does exist in the form of witness testimony.

And that evidence could reasonably be interpreted as describing a chase.

So the claim that no evidence exists that Zimmerman chased Martin is patently false.

This is clearly wrong.
Serino said that Zimmerman failed to volunteer information, not that he withheld any when he was asked for it.

The only thing clearly wrong here is the use of the word "withheld" that was just now introduced into the discussion as a means to dismiss evidence.

No one said Zimmerman "withheld" information, so the straw man upon which such a supposition is based flutters away in the wind like so much detritus.

 

[Mumbles]

...and so, we're left again with the simple question.

A 17 year old kid is walking down the street, when some guy becomes enraged and starts following him. If the kid runs home, the guy can easily follow him. What is the kid supposed to do?

I think I'm done with people claiming that Zimmerman wasn't following Martin. That's plainly false, and saying so makes it clear that you don't care about facts.

 

[Mumbles]

There's nothing there that either contradicts my comment or supports the one that I was responding to.
Failing to offer information to somebody is not the same as failing to respond to them.

Serino testified that Zimmerman's account was completely consistent with the evidence though, didn't he?
Didn't want to file charges and said that he thought that he was telling the truth.

If Serino said that on the stand, then he should be impeached.

The end.q

 

[ABC10]

If Serino said that on the stand, then he should be impeached.

The end.q

Serino did say that on the stand and not impeached by flapping Bernie, Guy or the weasel so looks like timpeachment is a no go.

 

[Cylinder]

Mark O'Mara honored as National Criminal Trial Lawyer of 2013. It's a well-deserved honor, not so much for securing an acquittal against this ridiculously-thin criminal charge, but rather for forcefully navigating the press, racial forces, political pressure and a state's attorney office willing to break the rules to preserve the manufactured narrative.

Meanwhile, an AP photographer is upset that Zimmerman seems to have used one of his photos for his latest opus. It's hard to imagine a this being anything but a derivative work and political speech - even if Zimmerman decides to profit from it.

 

[johnny karate]

Mark O'Mara honored as National Criminal Trial Lawyer of 2013. It's a well-deserved honor, not so much for securing an acquittal against this ridiculously-thin criminal charge, but rather for forcefully navigating the press, racial forces, political pressure and a state's attorney office willing to break the rules to preserve the manufactured narrative.

What rules were broken?

And please, offer evidence and cites, not personal opinion.

 

[geni]

an AP photographer is upset[/url] that Zimmerman seems to have used one of his photos for his latest opus. It's hard to imagine a this being anything but a derivative work and political speech - even if Zimmerman decides to profit from it.

I doubt the photographer cares one way or the other. AP on the other hand appears to be under the impression that if people use stuff they hold the copyright on they should be paid. Court rulings suggest that legaly they are correct in this belief.

 

[KatieG]

He's done it before, this stealing of other people's work and passing it off as his. The AP will definitely come after him.

 

[Cylinder]

What rules were broken?

And please, offer evidence and cites, not personal opinion.

The issues are fairly well-documented throughout this thread. Mainly, the state abandoned its duty to the rules - and the constitution - in regard to disclosing exculpatory evidence regarding photos of injury, perjury by a witness and telephone records relating to reputation for violence on behalf of the victim.

I would also ague that the state violated the rules of professional conduct by arguing a faithless charge - 3rd degree murder with child abuse as the underlying felony - to the court as a procedural maneuver.

 

[johnny karate]

The issues are fairly well-documented throughout this thread. Mainly, the state abandoned its duty to the rules - and the constitution - in regard to disclosing exculpatory evidence regarding photos of injury, perjury by a witness and telephone records relating to reputation for violence on behalf of the victim.

I would also ague that the state violated the rules of professional conduct by arguing a faithless charge - 3rd degree murder with child abuse as the underlying felony - to the court as a procedural maneuver.

Sorry if I didn't make myself appropriately clear, but when I asked for evidence beyond personal opinion, a cataloging of accusations coupled with personal opinion is exactly what I didn't want.

Something along the lines of an official proceeding or authority determining rules were actually broken should suffice.

Again, be sure to include cites, please.

 

[Mumbles]

Again, the big problem here is that, despite the cops saying his story was reasonable, Zimmerman's story didn't make any sense.

When do the dispatcher ask him to move his car to see Martin? It never happens in his recorded call.

Why would Martin circle his car, and then run away? That doesn't make any sense at all, even as intimidation?

Why would Zimmerman cross over to the next street, to look for a street number, that the dispatch never requests, and that Zimmerman never relays?

And for that matter, why does Zimmerman agree that he's following Martin? His stated reason is "I was in the area", but again, that makes no sense.

Why would Martin come back, to attack him, and why would he announce his presence before attacking? I've known thugs, they don't attack people solo.

Why is Martin talking in blaxploitation dialogue?

Zimmerman indicates that he reached behind his back to get his gun. How, when he's lying on his back while mounted.

Zimmerman also says that he quickly jumped up, got on Martin father he was shot, and spread his arms out. How does he accomplish this, shortly after his head was bashed into concrete dozens of times, so hard that he thought his head "would explode"?

Zimmerman's story simply makes no sense at all, so I see no reason why Serino or whoever would believe it. And that's why I think Serino should be off the force.

Now, again, what should Martin have done?

 

[Mumbles]

Mark O'Mara honored as National Criminal Trial Lawyer of 2013.

Then they messed up.

 

[ABC10]

Again, the big problem here is that, despite the cops saying his story was reasonable, Zimmerman's story didn't make any sense.

When do the dispatcher ask him to move his car to see Martin? It never happens in his recorded call.

Why would Martin circle his car, and then run away? That doesn't make any sense at all, even as intimidation?

Why would Zimmerman cross over to the next street, to look for a street number, that the dispatch never requests, and that Zimmerman never relays?

And for that matter, why does Zimmerman agree that he's following Martin? His stated reason is "I was in the area", but again, that makes no sense.

Why would Martin come back, to attack him, and why would he announce his presence before attacking? I've known thugs, they don't attack people solo.

Why is Martin talking in blaxploitation dialogue?

Zimmerman indicates that he reached behind his back to get his gun. How, when he's lying on his back while mounted.

Zimmerman also says that he quickly jumped up, got on Martin father he was shot, and spread his arms out. How does he accomplish this, shortly after his head was bashed into concrete dozens of times, so hard that he thought his head "would explode"?

Zimmerman's story simply makes no sense at all, so I see no reason why Serino or whoever would believe it. And that's why I think Serino should be off the force.

Now, again, what should Martin have done?

Poor Martin lost his life by making a poor decision to "knock out" soft pudgy George" who had a gun. Martin should have passed George by and gone to Brandys. It is a tragedy. Engaging strangers is dangerous business in this day and age as we see from this event and others. Like the poor Australian baseball player, sometimes they shoot you for fun.

 

[johnny karate]

Poor Martin lost his life by making a poor decision to "knock out" soft pudgy George" who had a gun.

Or Martin was defending himself from being accosted by a strange man who ended up shooting him when the fight didn't go his way.

None of us will ever know which of these situations is closer to the truth, so asserting either as fact is equally foolish.

Of course, we have learned a lot about the person making the former claim, and how much he isn't what he claimed to be in his version of events...

Martin should have passed George by and gone to Brandys.

He did pass by Zimmerman. Zimmerman then proceeded to get out of his car and follow him.

It is a tragedy. Engaging strangers is dangerous business in this day and age as we see from this event and others. Like the poor Australian baseball player, sometimes they shoot you for fun.

It is indeed a tragedy.

But a least Zimmerman has the class and integrity to retire to a quiet life and not use this tragedy as a springboard to cheap celebrity.

 

[ABC10]

Ah but we do know from the witnesses, forensic evidence and expert testimony.

 

[johnny karate]

Ah but we do know from the witnesses, forensic evidence and expert testimony.

Wrong.

No witness saw how the altercation began.

No forensic evidence can tell us how the altercation began.

No expert testified to how the altercation began.

What we do know is that Zimmerman presented himself as non-confrontational, non-violent, and unable to fight or defend himself, and used that as a cornerstone to his narrative of self-defense.

Then, in the months that followed his acquittal, he proceeded to demonstrate himself to be confrontational, violent, and an amateur boxer.

 

[Cylinder]

Kobe Bryant questions the motive behind Miami Heat hoodie protest:

I won’t react to something just because I’m supposed to, because I’m an African-American,” he said. “That argument doesn’t make any sense to me. So we want to advance as a society and a culture, but, say, if something happens to an African-American we immediately come to his defense? Yet you want to talk about how far we’ve progressed as a society? Well, we’ve progressed as a society, then don’t jump to somebody’s defense just because they’re African-American. You sit and you listen to the facts just like you would in any other situation, right? So I won’t assert myself.”

 

[Cylinder]

Talk host Arsenio Hall and ESPN analyst/host Steven Smith discuss Kobe Bryant, Tawana Brawley, racism and critical thinking and how it relates to the Zimmerman case:

 

[eirik]

What we do know is that Zimmerman presented himself as non-confrontational, non-violent, and unable to fight or defend himself, and used that as a cornerstone to his narrative of self-defense.

Citation needed. My impression is he presented himself like a normal citizen.