Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[carvin2]

And she is in jail because of this theory.

 

[vwgub]

And she is in jail because of this theory.

All prosecution occurs because of theory of the crime.

 

[Dan O.]

Once again, you saying so does not make it so, there are 200 guys and gals over at PMF that say otherwise so by numbers, I guess your wrong. If that is your way of thinking - does not make any sense to me, at best it is inconclusive but by no means can it be decided that it is Rudy's alone.

It's not what I say. It's what the evidence shows. When those 200 guys and gals stop playing follow the leader they may start to see the truth.

Now, unless you care to start discussing the evidence instead of your feelings, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Draca]

According to the motivations the knife was collected in a paper envelope which Finzi had with him. I assume this means he brought the envelope to the flat.

Why would he bring an ordinary envelope with him? Even if he brought it with him its still not a sound collection technique. I think this is worthy of some investigation. I wonder if Charlie has the envelope on film? I suspect it is from Raffaele's apt after seeing how they collected the mop. I will try and find out more about this.

 

[Dan O.]

They didn't start filming until the second visit where we get to see Mignini inspecting with great curiosity the pair of latex gloves found in Raffaele's kitchen trash can.

ETA: The video is from the visit on the 16th of November which was at least the third visit by evidence of what else was found in the trash.

 

[christianahannah]

Why would he bring an ordinary envelope with him? Even if he brought it with him its still not a sound collection technique. I think this is worthy of some investigation. I wonder if Charlie has the envelope on film? I suspect it is from Raffaele's apt after seeing how they collected the mop. I will try and find out more about this.

Was it an ordinary envelope or a proper evidence collection envelope? I don't know but I expect that will be reviewed by the experts.

As to whether it was brought by Finzi or was already in the flat I have no direct knowledge, only what is contained in the motivations as to Finzi's testimony.

I have viewed some of the film of Raffaele's flat but it was later than November 6.

 

[Draca]

They didn't start filming until the second visit where we get to see Mignini inspecting with great curiosity the pair of latex gloves found in Raffaele's kitchen trash can.

Thanks Dan O.

Do you know why they went back a 2nd time on Nov 16th?

It's strange how these searches are so spread out, no?

 

[Draca]

Was it an ordinary envelope or a proper evidence collection envelope? I don't know but I expect that will be reviewed by the experts.

The quote LJ posted from Massei:
the knife was found by the Scientific Police of Perugia, then transferred to Rome inside a regular envelope (of the type used) for letters, and a cardboard box
Massei, p254

Massei also says Finzi brought it with him. I have doubts about that. I don't know why he would bring it with him....
Massei, p106

 

[odeed]

Why would he bring an ordinary envelope with him? Even if he brought it with him its still not a sound collection technique. I think this is worthy of some investigation. I wonder if Charlie has the envelope on film? I suspect it is from Raffaele's apt after seeing how they collected the mop. I will try and find out more about this.

I answered this on the previous page, the use of envelopes or paper bags is recommended.

 

[Draca]

I answered this on the previous page, the use of envelopes or paper bags is recommended.

Thanks for the links Odeed.

Interesting. I wonder why Massei didn't say it was an authorized collection envelope?

 

[vwgub]

Why would he bring an ordinary envelope with him? Even if he brought it with him its still not a sound collection technique. I think this is worthy of some investigation. I wonder if Charlie has the envelope on film? I suspect it is from Raffaele's apt after seeing how they collected the mop. I will try and find out more about this.

Why would'nt a clean envelop be proper for evidence collection?

 

[babycondor]

Want to bet my kitchen knives don't have my DNA on it even thought I use them every day.

Your skin cells contain DNA. There is a way to obtain DNA from fingerprints.

"Humans shed tens of thousands of skin cells each day, and these cells are transferred to every surface with which human skin comes into contact.

Locard's Exchange Principle states that with contact between two items, there will always be an exchange. So, when a crime is committed, if the perpetrator deposits a sufficient number of skin cells on an item at the scene, and that item is collected as possible evidence, Touch DNA analysis may be able to link the perpetrator to the crime scene, by collecting the skin cells and analyzing them.

According to the experts, Touch DNA has been successfully sampled from a variety of items including gun grips, steering wheels, eating utensils, luggage handles, and clothing."

Read more at Suite101: What is Touch DNA?: New Forensics that Cleared JonBenet Ramsey’s Family http://www.suite101.com/content/what-is-touch-dna-a85797#ixzz1DoQtue4D

 

[Dan O.]

Here is everywhere Massei talks about the box that the knife delivered to Rome in:


Massei - [99] (Google translation)

He then reported that the return to the police station Inspector Finzi handed material seized in the home of Sollecito Raffaele. The first thing was finding the knife that was inside a new envelope that was wrapped well and it appeared so close that had no contact with the outside world (p. 201 and 223). Clear that when the knife was finding new gloves, which he had used on other occasions and that he had taken office. So, with these gloves, removed the knife from the bag and put it inside a box sealed with tape. Stated that the box previously and there were no other agenda items if not "new agenda donated" by a bank (p. 202). This box was then sent, along with other findings, the Scientific Police in Rome (p. 203).​

Massei - [224]

Stated again that this knife, exhibit 36, had received in a box and was delivered in the laboratory where he was photographed and analyzed. The container of the knife is not satisfied that it was sterile, but stated that "even the remains are sterile ..​

Massei - [272]

What was achieved was considered so due to contamination and this for a number of reasons: how repertoire (knife findings by the forensic team in Perugia and then transferred to Rome within an envelope and a box of cardboard ; ​

Massei - [282]
Exhibit 36.

That knife was the first object that touched and was above all the dishes. Put it in a paper bag, new, and he was carrying and then in a folder. The envelope with the knife handed in to the superintendent Gubbiotti qundo returned to police headquarters.
In turn, the superintendent Gubbiotti ... received the knife Finzi: the object was inside a well sealed envelope new . Gubbiotti also stated that when the knife was finding new gloves, never used before and had taken office. It was with these new gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it in a box sealed with scotch and transmitted it to other findings in the Scientific Police in Rome...​

Massei - [283]

...when he pulled out the envelope in which to place it was kept in a box that previously contained a new agenda, a gift of ima bank and sealed, conveyed to the Scientific Police in Rome.​

She stated that when finding that the knife had new gloves that he had used on other occasions on which, therefore, could not find the DNA that he would be found on the knife. In the box where the knife was placed certainly can not think of that might be contaminating DNA of Amanda and Meredith because it was a box which was kept a diary new box that is sealed, was sent to Science in Rome.​

Only the one entry on page [272] talks about the knife being in both the box and an envelope. I would seriously think that Massei would not talk so much about the box if the knife were isolated from the box by being inside an envelope.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks Dan O.

Do you know why they went back a 2nd time on Nov 16th?

It's strange how these searches are so spread out, no?

The 16th was the third visit. I've seen references that they were at the flat on the 14th and there is one of the seals and tape from the door already in the trash when they entered on the 16th.

The 16th is coincidentally when they got the DNA results back on the knife.

 

[Draca]

The 16th was the third visit. I've seen references that they were at the flat on the 14th and there is one of the seals and tape from the door already in the trash when they entered on the 16th.

The 16th is coincidentally when they got the DNA results back on the knife.

I asked Steve Moore about the clean envelope and he said that IS a sound collection technique.

Do we know it they took the knife out of the envelope before putting it in the box or left it in the envelope?

Thanks for the Massie quotes btw.

Is this another Lamp? Will we never know?

 

[Justinian2]

How would they make a case against me?
Hmm.

Firstly, I don’t have an alibi that night. I assume that they could searched the flights into Rome in October and found a dubious name or alias which they would have said belonged to me. Then they could have traced that or another alias back to Logan airport. They could have paid some drunk/professional witness to testify that I was at the airport.

The motive – that would be easy. They would grab my computer and proved that I had searched for BDSM and had visited the site of a dominatrix. Then they would destroy the rest of my hard drive so that I couldn’t prove my alibi.

The confession would be easy. They would keep me in the interrogation room until my old prostate just screamed for mercy. Then they would stick a ridiculous confession in front of me which I would sign without reading. How many contracts do I read anyway? I would consider the confession to be so much of a joke that nobody in their right mind would believe it anyway.

The evidence also would be easy. While I was in the interrogation room, they would hit me on the back of the head so I wouldn’t feel the hair on my head being pulled out. The hair and DNA from the glass they gave me in the interrogation room would become conclusive rock solid evidence against me.

They would arrest the one person that could confirm my alibi and accuse her of the crime as well. There goes the old alibi!

You get the idea. They could gather this type of evidence against you or I or anybody. This case is a joke. It doesn’t take Randi to debunk this.

 

[Draca]

Only the one entry on page [272] talks about the knife being in both the box and an envelope. I would seriously think that Massei would not talk so much about the box if the knife were isolated from the box by being inside an envelope.

In these two quotes they state pretty clearly that they took the knife out of the paper envelope and put it in the agenda box:

So, with these gloves, removed the knife from the bag and put it inside a box sealed with tape.
p. 203

It was with these new gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it in a box sealed with scotch and transmitted it to other findings in the Scientific Police in Rome...
P. 282

It doesn't say here that the envelope was inside the box. It could mean the knife was transported first within an envelope and then within a box:

and then transferred to Rome within an envelope and a box of cardboard ;
P. 272

 

[Dan O.]

I asked Steve Moore about the clean envelope and he said that IS a sound collection technique.

It could be sound but we don't know the full provenience of this bag. The evidence collection bags are sterile until they are opened at the crime scene to eliminate this very issue. In the crime scene video of November 2nd, there is an unsuited officer holding up the duvet with his regular police gloves!? Had he handled Finzi's bag after returning from the cottage? We don't know.

Do we know it they took the knife out of the envelope before putting it in the box or left it in the envelope?

Massei says the knife was removed from the bag that Fenzi placed it in and then put in the box.

 

[Dan O.]

It doesn't say here that the envelope was inside the box. It could mean the knife was transported first within an envelope and then within a box:

You need to go back to the original Italian to verify that there wasn't just a little bit of bias in the translation. In other locations, "envelope" and "bag" are translated from the same italian word. In one translation, this passage was saying that the knife was placed in the box and then the box was placed in a bag with other evidence that was delivered to Rome.

 

[Kaosium]

_______________

Kaosium,

That's not a fair representation of the situation. As Machiavelli pointed out months ago on this forum, it's pure fiction to say that the Forensic Police are refusing to release these famous "Electronic Data Files" to the defense attorneys. In their APPEAL DOCUMENTS the defense attorneys (of both lovebirds) complain that the records provided them by the Forensic Police during the original trial, in July 2009, were "inadequate" and "inconsistent," but they never complain that the Forensic Police are in possession of certain "Electronic Data Files" which the Forensic Police refuses to release.

The failure to release the EDF files is what makes those records inadequate and inconsistent.

To the best of my knowledge, the only party refused access to certain "Electronic Data Files" is a biology teacher in Idaho, Greg Hampikian. And even his request was probably not---properly speaking--- refused by the Forensic Police. They probably just ignored it.

///

If they ignored the 'request' from Professor Hampikiean, that is an admission they refused to release the files. He is a consultant for the defense.