Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[katy_did]

Your research is interesting, but I'm not sure it has led to an accurate conclusion insofar as what happened to Meredith's bra. The cups of the bra are sprinkled with fine blood drops, aspirated as she struggled to breathe with that terrible wound in her neck. The doors of her wardrobe have the same fine droplets, albeit they are elongated because they were cast onto a vertical surface.

Meredith's bare breasts also revealed this pattern of blood droplets. And the side of the wardrobe, adjacent to where her head lay when her body was found, is likewise sprayed with aspirated droplets.

After struggling with her assailant in the area between her desk and the window, she fell to her knees in front of the wardrobe, and it was there that the assailant inflicted the fatal wound to her neck, which immediately caused copious bleeding on the floor. The bloodstains show that she was on her hands and knees for a few moments, struggling to crawl. Her left hand was covered with blood when she was found, presumably because she held it to her throat at this time while propping herself up on her right hand.

When she collapsed, the killer began the activity that culminated in some kind of sexual assault. He dragged her, face down, using her blue fleece jacket as a handle. It started to come off, so he removed it completely and dropped it where it was found, in front of the wardrobe. He dragged her until her head was on the left side of the wardrobe closet. It was then that he removed her bra and rolled her onto her back. She was still gasping for breath, but she was no longer capable of resisting the assault.

I think the problem with a lot of what you write above is that it's just one interpretation of the evidence, rather than the only possible interpretation of it. I don't believe we can be anywhere near as certain about the way the murder happened.

For example, there seems no irrefutable evidence that a sexual assault occurred after the fatal wounds were made, or nothing that couldn't equally well be interpreted differently. You say that Meredith was still wearing her blue jacket when she was stabbed, that the killer even used it as a 'handle' to drag her. Yet the jacket could equally have become bloody by lying in blood on the floor, and in fact the bottom left of it is soaked in blood, a long way from the neck area. If the clasp was indeed cut prior to the wounds being made, as the lack of blood on the clasp area would indicate, then it seems unlikely Meredith was wearing her jacket at that point, since the attacker would have needed to lift her shirts to get access to the bra. It would be much easier to remove the jacket beforehand.

As another example, it's possible the 'drag' marks on the floor were made by Meredith herself struggling to get up (perhaps indicated by the bloody fingerprints on the wardrobe) rather than because someone dragged her. According to Sollecito's defence, this was noted in Dr. Camana's report analyzing the blood traces, in which she says that Meredith "dragged herself or was dragged" along the floor (all sides accepted Camana's findings).

Similarly, assuming that Meredith was rolled over onto her back, it's only an assumption that the perpetrator did this in order to carry out a sexual assault. I'm more inclined to think that Rudy - having, after all, entered the house as a petty thief and facing the reality of leaving it as a murderer - panicked at this stage, and that there is some truth to his story about fetching the towels in an attempt to halt the bleeding. This would also explain why what appears to have been an attempted rape stopped at a manual assault - the obviously fatal injuries halted the assault.

In summary, I think there are a number of possible interpretations of the evidence in the room, and that while your theory is certainly possible, it's not the only way it could have happened.

As to the question of whether the backstrap of the bra was cut or ripped apart, I could go either way, although I tend to believe Hendry because his analysis is so grounded in observable details. I do believe strongly that the disrobing of the victim and the sexual assault only began after she was incapacitated from the knife wounds. It is the only scenario that fits the overall pattern of evidence.

It would be interesting to use a knife to cut through a piece of fabric similar to the bra fastener, and then compare the appearance of the cut edge to the high-res photos of the bra fastener.

My impression is that Ron Hendry formed his opinion on the bra clasp from looking at pictures of it, rather than from seeing how easy or difficult it would be to actually tear that part of the bra. Observable details are one thing, but whether something can be done in practice is another question. Having said that, I'd also be interested to see a clasp that had been cut versus one that had been torn off in order to make a comparison.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Yes. No, I don't think it's inappropriate, though I think the xenophobia that some have displayed doesn't help their case in Europe.

I was responding to CDHost's assertion that the Kerchers had a PR machine working for them, and his assertions about the Italian justice system with regard to plea bargains.

Have you read this one? Is there something in this text you personally don't agree with?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Mr. Maresca and Mr. Kercher

I hardly think two interviews, one prior to the trial and one recently, can be compared with the PR circuit of chat shows and interviews that Ms Knox's supporters have given over the years since Mr Kercher's beloved daughter was horribly murdered.

I prefer to conduct any discussion of the case in open forums; I see no reason to discuss anything in private as I would not say anything in private that I would not be prepared to say on the boards. If you do not wish to discuss Mr Kercher's views, there is no necessity for you to do so.

Mr Maresca's questions and interviews were not the subject of my reply to CDHost.

Agatha,

You also wrote, “Whilst it might suit your purposes to suggest that they have engaged in demonising Ms Knox, Mr Sollecito and Mr Guede; that has not been the case other than to say publicly that they feel that the right people are incarcerated.” Your comment above fails to acknowledge your error. However, the weakness of your position goes beyond this.

Nothing compelled the Kercher’s begin a civil suit, and nothing compelled them to hire Mr. Maresca; therefore, the Kercher’s bear some of the responsibility for his reprehensible actions. Like it or not, Mr. Maresca’s actions are germane to this discussion. Likewise nothing compelled Mr. Maresca to write an article for a tabloid paper. Now let’s look at what Mr. Kercher said in his article.

“I have watched them repeatedly reiterate the mantra of their daughter’s innocence.”

The use of the word “mantra” here is puzzling and unnecessarily combative. Even Barbie Nadeau does not doubt that Edda Mellas is sincere her belief of her daughter’s innocence.

“This appeal, like the initial court case, will drag on for months, while the dark tunnel between my family and our *ability to grieve for Meredith in peace becomes ever longer.
If Knox doesn’t get the result she wants, our agony will be even more *protracted: she may then take her case to Italy’s Supreme Court in Rome. Put simply, our ordeal could go on for years.”

Is Mr. Kercher saying that Amanda (and Raffaele, whom he ignores) should give up their legal and moral right to appeal, in order to spare him pain? That would be a deeply flawed and troubling position to take.

Moreover, your premise is fundamentally a poor one: It is nonsensical to equate the positions of the two families. No one attacked Meredith’s character; the attacks on Amanda’s, and to a lesser extent, Raffaele’s, character have been documented here time and time again. Amanda’s family was entirely logical in their decision to counter the attack.

 

[CDHost]

I don't think Italy has the sort of plea-bargaining arrangement that you are envisioning, CDHost. http://www.canestrinilex.it/eng/risorse/trial.html

The Kerchers have no right to push for plea bargaining,

Of course they do, they have the right to push for whatever they want. I agree they don't have an official way of doing much. They ask Mignini and if not they go on TV "We want our privacy we want this handled quietly not as a media circus. We don't want the children involved demonized we want a simple sentence commensurate with a homicide..." Which puts Mignini in a bad position in going for life. It particular would have put in him in a bad position in late '07 and early '08 when he was using a public publicity campaign to shake loose evidence.

Again, I don't know Italy but DA's in the US don't generally like to go for processes which the victim's family think are excessive.

They, unlike the Knoxes, have not engaged a PR firm,

The Italian government is a rather effective PR agency. I agree they haven't paid them for their work. I think you are trying to limit this to just the Kercher's rather than the Kercher's as part of a prosecutorial system that they supported. What I said about them was, "They were perfectly OK with a massive PR campaign." I stand by that, I never charged them with funding one.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

irrelevant

Yes. No, I don't think it's inappropriate, though I think the xenophobia that some have displayed doesn't help their case in Europe.

I was responding to CDHost's assertion that the Kerchers had a PR machine working for them, and his assertions about the Italian justice system with regard to plea bargains.

Agatha,

Now you are playing the xenophobia c(an)ard, and without an example of what you mean. Is this not irrelevant to a discussion of PR firms?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Has anyone told him that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent until their final appeal?

No Amanda and Raffaele have been convicted pending their automatic appeals, logically if they had been found not guilty they would not be in prison and there would be no appeal process.

 

[Withnail1969]

“This appeal, like the initial court case, will drag on for months, while the dark tunnel between my family and our *ability to grieve for Meredith in peace becomes ever longer.
If Knox doesn’t get the result she wants, our agony will be even more *protracted: she may then take her case to Italy’s Supreme Court in Rome. Put simply, our ordeal could go on for years.”

Notice John Kercher never mentions Rudy, the only one of the three proven to have sexually assaulted and possibly raped his daughter before her death. Rudy who confessed to leaving his daughter to die while he went nighclubbing. Rudy who kept on dancing during a minute's silence held for Meredith the following night. Rudy who will be out of prison in four years.

What's special about Rudy? He doesn't have 2 million Euros.

 

[Withnail1969]

No Amanda and Raffaele have been convicted pending their automatic appeals, logically if they had been found not guilty they would not be in prison and there would be no appeal process.

That's interesting. Maybe you'd like to tell that to Giuliano Mignini who has been convicted of abuse of office and given a prison sentence but is not in fact in prison pending his automatic appeal.

 

[CDHost]

Are you suggesting the Kercher family orchestrated the negative media reports during the police investigation?

Nope. I'm suggesting they were fully in support of the negative campaign organized by the Italian government. Amanda Knox and Prosecutorial Abuse
. They had a lower level of involvement. They have been consistently perfectly OK with publicity they just don't like it to be two sided.

I can understand that emotion it is why George Bush bombed Al Jazera. But I think the proper reaction to it, is what Al Jazera did, keep reporting exactly like there were before.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Of course they do, they have the right to push for whatever they want. I agree they don't have an official way of doing much. They ask Mignini and if not they go on TV "We want our privacy we want this handled quietly not as a media circus. We don't want the children involved demonized we want a simple sentence commensurate with a homicide..." Which puts Mignini in a bad position in going for life. It particular would have put in him in a bad position in late '07 and early '08 when he was using a public publicity campaign to shake loose evidence.

Again, I don't know Italy but DA's in the US don't generally like to go for processes which the victim's family think are excessive.


The Italian government is a rather effective PR agency. I agree they haven't paid them for their work. I think you are trying to limit this to just the Kercher's rather than the Kercher's as part of a prosecutorial system that they supported. What I said about them was, "They were perfectly OK with a massive PR campaign." I stand by that, I never charged them with funding one.

Sorry I am confused, are stating the Italian government are responsible for the tabloid media coverage of Meredith’s murder and have briefed against Amanda and I assume Raffaele?

 

[CDHost]

Plea Bargans

Of course unofficial plea bargans exist in Italy but it appears they have an official thing as well: Patteggiamento. I'd love to hit someone who know Italian justice better in practice on how readily this sort of thing is used.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Nope. I'm suggesting they were fully in support of the negative campaign organized by the Italian government. Amanda Knox and Prosecutorial Abuse
. They had a lower level of involvement. They have been consistently perfectly OK with publicity they just don't like it to be two sided.

I can understand that emotion it is why George Bush bombed Al Jazera. But I think the proper reaction to it, is what Al Jazera did, keep reporting exactly like there were before.

Sorry in what public way did the Kercher family demonstrate their full support of what you describe, I certainly do recall them speaking to media during the trial.

 

[CDHost]

Sorry I am confused, are [you] stating the Italian government are responsible for the tabloid media coverage of Meredith’s murder and have briefed against Amanda and I assume Raffaele?

Yes. Absolutely. Yes they were conducting briefs. They were openly lying abut the two of them. It was a coordinated attack on the part of the government. I don't think there is even anyone questioning that, reporters have named their governmental sources, and those sources aren't denying it.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

That's interesting. Maybe you'd like to tell that to Giuliano Mignini who has been convicted of abuse of office and given a prison sentence but is not in fact in prison pending his automatic appeal.

I really don't know the answer, but at a guess I assume there is a difference between a capital crime like murder and whatever crime the PM has been convicted of and like Raffaele and Amanda has the chance to appeal.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Yes. Absolutely. Yes they were conducting briefs. They were openly lying abut the two of them. It was a coordinated attack on the part of the government. I don't think there is even anyone questioning that, reporters have named their governmental sources, and those sources aren't denying it.

Oh ok can you provide some independent evidence that supports your assertion.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Sorry in what public way did the Kercher family demonstrate their full support of what you describe, I certainly do recall them speaking to media during the trial.

Sorry a typo "I certainly do not recall them speaking to the media during the trial.

 

[Alt+F4]

That's interesting. Maybe you'd like to tell that to Giuliano Mignini who has been convicted of abuse of office and given a prison sentence but is not in fact in prison pending his automatic appeal.

No he hasn't. Like AK and RS he is considered innocent until his appeals are concluded.

 

[Withnail1969]

I really don't know the answer, but at a guess I assume there is a difference between a capital crime like murder and whatever crime the PM has been convicted of and like Raffaele and Amanda has the chance to appeal.

In Italy, as I told you, you're innocent until your final appeal. Even for Mafia hitmen, it's common for them to be under house arrest until then. Amanda and Raffaele are being held, just as they were during the trial, on the ludicrous premise that they would go on some kind of Natural Born Killers style killing spree around Perugia if released on bail.

 

[Withnail1969]

No he hasn't. Like AK and RS he is considered innocent until his appeals are concluded.

But don't do you keep referring to AK and RS as 'convicted'? I've certainly never heard you refer to them as 'innocent until their appeals are concluded' IIRC, but i will expect you to do so from now on. If they're innocent, could you please explain why they are in prison, thanks.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

precautionary

No Amanda and Raffaele have been convicted pending their automatic appeals, logically if they had been found not guilty they would not be in prison and there would be no appeal process.

CoulsdonUK,

You ignore the fact that they were incarcerated for eleven months before they were even charged, in a type of precautionary detention.