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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Guess what happened to the police who were involved in the Birmingham 6 case? Nothing, no one was prosecuted.

Please provide some evidence that anyone in this case would be subjected to being fired for apologizing and saying, "sorry, we arrested the wrong people".


Strangely, three police officers (including the senior detective) were charged with criminal offences related to this case, but they were never prosecuted under these charges. Suffice it to say that it's extremely rare to be charged with a criminal offence in the UK but not prosecuted for it.

ETA: I don't think any of the police involved in the case had stellar reputations after the quashing of the Birmingham Six's convictions, prosecutions or not. They certainly didn't get any medals ;)
 
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LondonJohn

An interesting even plausible response in places, but for me it smacks of a conspiracy theories. I can’t see why Perugia police or magistrates would collectively act in the way you suggested. I could understand if they hadn’t arrested anyone or there was public pressure to do so but as you say Amanda and Raffaele were arrested early on.

Based on how you and other supporters of Amanda and Raffaele write the appeal should be a straightforward acquittal.


I'm glad you find it "even plausible in places" :)

But that's kind of the point: the police had already announced (boasted, even) to the whole world that they had already solved the case: that Knox and Sollecito were guilty (along with Lumumba) of murdering Meredith Kercher. They didn't just announce that they'd arrested these people in relation to the murder. They told the world, with apparent confidence (hubris...) that these three WERE THE KILLERS.

And you're getting a tad carried away with talk of conspiracies (ooh, I said the word again!). None of the judiciary needed to have knowingly participated in any form of misdeed whatsoever - indeed, they initially sanctioned the detention of Knox and Sollecito largely based on "evidence" which has now turned out to be bogus. Plus, there is a huge and important difference between "tunnel vision" and "conspiracy".

I'm not a "supporter of Amanda and Raffaele". I just happen to think that they were wrongly convicted of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

And yes, my current belief is that the first appeal court should overturn their convictions (I believe that the knife will definitely get thrown out as evidence, that the bra clasp is likely to get thrown out, that Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezzali will be discredited as witnesses, that the ToD will be established as definitely before 10pm, and that computer records may well bolster Sollecito's/Knox's alibis). I guess we'll know by July or so whether I am right or wrong....
 
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I'm glad you find it "even plausible in places" :)

But that's kind of the point: the police had already announced (boasted, even) to the whole world that they had already solved the case: that Knox and Sollecito were guilty (along with Lumumba) of murdering Meredith Kercher. They didn't just announce that they'd arrested these people in relation to the murder. They told the world, with apparent confidence (hubris...) that these three WERE THE KILLERS.

And you're getting a tad carried away with talk of conspiracies (ooh, I said the word again!). None of the judiciary needed to have knowingly participated in any form of misdeed whatsoever - indeed, they initially sanctioned the detention of Knox and Sollecito largely based on "evidence" which has now turned out to be bogus. Plus, there is a huge and important difference between "tunnel vision" and "conspiracy".

I'm not a "supporter of Amanda and Raffaele". I just happen to think that they were wrongly convicted of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

And yes, my current belief is that the first appeal court should overturn their convictions (I believe that the knife will definitely get thrown out as evidence, that the bra clasp is likely to get thrown out, that Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezzali will be discredited as witnesses, that the ToD will be established as definitely before 10pm, and that computer records may well bolster Sollecito's/Knox's alibis). I guess we'll know by July or so whether I am right or wrong....
LondonJohn
Notwithstanding the benefits of civil exchanges of view, what I find interesting is that people have already made their minds up either way which is strange because the appeal has only made one decision and that report is not due until April or May. I for one look forward to discussing what has actually taken place in the appeal rather rehashing the trial; also think I am the only person who doesn’t understand why people continue to talk of Guede, his conviction and sentence have been confirmed all that is left to discuss is the final motivational report of his appeal.
 
CoulsdonUK,

It has been brought up many times here that Dr. Giobbi or someone in his department in Rome had Amanda's picture on wall in the hallway. According to Darkness Descending, this was prior to Guede's arrest. In addition, the police took the three suspects (Amanda, Patrick, and Raffaele) on a convoy which detoured through old Perugia on the morning of the 6th. This, too, was debated in great detail here. I think tunnel-vision is a big part of the story.
Halides1

I have heard about the Amanda’s picture hanging in someone’s office, any idea who and when this was first raised? Sorry I didn’t realise this had already been discussed at length.
 
CoulsdonUK,

It has been brought up many times here that Dr. Giobbi or someone in his department in Rome had Amanda's picture on wall in the hallway. According to Darkness Descending, this was prior to Guede's arrest. In addition, the police took the three suspects (Amanda, Patrick, and Raffaele) on a convoy which detoured through old Perugia on the morning of the 6th. This, too, was debated in great detail here. I think tunnel-vision is a big part of the story.

The police did not make a detour through old Perugia. The facts do not back this up as I (partially) explained previously.
 
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LondonJohn
Notwithstanding the benefits of civil exchanges of view, what I find interesting is that people have already made their minds up either way which is strange because the appeal has only made one decision and that report is not due until April or May. I for one look forward to discussing what has actually taken place in the appeal rather rehashing the trial; also think I am the only person who doesn’t understand why people continue to talk of Guede, his conviction and sentence have been confirmed all that is left to discuss is the final motivational report of his appeal.


Well, firstly I'd say that due to the (absolutely proper) asymmetry inherent in the juducial process, it takes a very high degree of certainty of guilt (to the level where a "reasonable person" would have no doubts whatsoever) to assign a guilty verdict, whereas it only takes a small modicum of doubt to assign a "not guilty" verdict. Which is not the same as saying the defendants are innocent, by the way, only that they have not been proven to be guilty. The defendants, in other words, have no need whatsoever to prove their innocence, whereas the court has to prove their guilt in order to convict.

Second, there will be other things in process before the DNA experts deliver their results on the re-evaluation of the knife and bra clasp evidence. Curatolo is likely to be re-examined by then, and the court will also be studying all the other evidence from the first trial in the meantime. So it's incorrect to say that everything will be dormant until the DNA issue comes back.

I'd say that the reason Guede comes up is that it's to all intents certain that he was present at the time of the murder (his palm print in Meredith's blood was found in her room, among other things). I'd contend that since he (and his lawyer) knows he can't refute being in the room at around the time of the murder, his best (only?) possible defence is that he WAS there, but for innocent reasons, and that someone else committed the murder while he was out of the room. He then contends that he tried in vain to help the dying Meredith (but somehow didn't manage to alert anyone either by phone or out on the street). However, this cockamamie story tends to be somewhat blown apart by the undisputed fact that he was out dancing merrily in a Perugia club within a few hours of the murder, and by his flight to Germany a couple of days later.

Now, Guede opted for the fast track route, and was convicted and confirmed on appeal. But this itself raises a problem with the Italian system: if there's a crime where the allegation is one of a "joint enterprise", each defendant should be evaluated in isolation, and without prejudice from rulings on other defendants. In the UK, for example, if there was a bank robbery involving 5 suspects, and one of the five chose to plead guilty before trial, this fact would be kept from the jury until they had tried the remaining four. In the Kercher case however, we have the potentially ludicrous scenario of Guede's trial publicly concluding that he was one of a group of murderers, before the judicial process involving the only two other people who are currently connected with the murder has finished. I'd argue that this in itself is not conducive to justice, and that all the rulings involving Guede should have been kept secret until the final appeal rulings on Knox and Sollecito.

It might therefore become interesting for Guede if the Knox's/Sollecito's appeal court overturns their convictions. This would leave Guede as the lone assailant, and I'm wondering if he might therefore be able to argue that his own conviction was based on a now-discredited scenario?
 
Well, firstly I'd say that due to the (absolutely proper) asymmetry inherent in the juducial process, it takes a very high degree of certainty of guilt (to the level where a "reasonable person" would have no doubts whatsoever) to assign a guilty verdict, whereas it only takes a small modicum of doubt to assign a "not guilty" verdict. Which is not the same as saying the defendants are innocent, by the way, only that they have not been proven to be guilty. The defendants, in other words, have no need whatsoever to prove their innocence, whereas the court has to prove their guilt in order to convict.

Second, there will be other things in process before the DNA experts deliver their results on the re-evaluation of the knife and bra clasp evidence. Curatolo is likely to be re-examined by then, and the court will also be studying all the other evidence from the first trial in the meantime. So it's incorrect to say that everything will be dormant until the DNA issue comes back.

I'd say that the reason Guede comes up is that it's to all intents certain that he was present at the time of the murder (his palm print in Meredith's blood was found in her room, among other things). I'd contend that since he (and his lawyer) knows he can't refute being in the room at around the time of the murder, his best (only?) possible defence is that he WAS there, but for innocent reasons, and that someone else committed the murder while he was out of the room. He then contends that he tried in vain to help the dying Meredith (but somehow didn't manage to alert anyone either by phone or out on the street). However, this cockamamie story tends to be somewhat blown apart by the undisputed fact that he was out dancing merrily in a Perugia club within a few hours of the murder, and by his flight to Germany a couple of days later.

Now, Guede opted for the fast track route, and was convicted and confirmed on appeal. But this itself raises a problem with the Italian system: if there's a crime where the allegation is one of a "joint enterprise", each defendant should be evaluated in isolation, and without prejudice from rulings on other defendants. In the UK, for example, if there was a bank robbery involving 5 suspects, and one of the five chose to plead guilty before trial, this fact would be kept from the jury until they had tried the remaining four. In the Kercher case however, we have the potentially ludicrous scenario of Guede's trial publicly concluding that he was one of a group of murderers, before the judicial process involving the only two other people who are currently connected with the murder has finished. I'd argue that this in itself is not conducive to justice, and that all the rulings involving Guede should have been kept secret until the final appeal rulings on Knox and Sollecito.

It might therefore become interesting for Guede if the Knox's/Sollecito's appeal court overturns their convictions. This would leave Guede as the lone assailant, and I'm wondering if he might therefore be able to argue that his own conviction was based on a now-discredited scenario?

Up to now it was probably in Rudy's interests to have Amanda and Raffaele convicted of having played a part in the murder of Meredith,since his conviction has been upheld by the Italian supreme court everything has changed his last hope in my opinion is that Amanda and Raffaele are acquitted,and better still if it could be proven the police and the prosecution conspired to frame Amanda and Raffaele,which I believe they did.

Rudy Guede having entered Merediths house to rob was disturbed by her arrival home,with his well practiced skills of breaking into homes he could without much effort have exited the apartment and left Meredith unharmed but he sexually assaulted her stabbed her in the throat locked her in her room to die alone,he has watched the Perugian authorities convict an innocent couple of his brutal crime,now the manner in which the case against this innocent young couple collapses gives him an outside chance of getting away with a heinous crime and who knows maybe even compensated for his years in prison
 
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And yes, my current belief is that the first appeal court should overturn their convictions (I believe that the knife will definitely get thrown out as evidence, that the bra clasp is likely to get thrown out, that Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezzali will be discredited as witnesses, that the ToD will be established as definitely before 10pm, and that computer records may well bolster Sollecito's/Knox's alibis). I guess we'll know by July or so whether I am right or wrong....
Hi LondonJohn,
I would like your opinion on something, which might help also point to a very early ToD, of which you debate well about.

Reading on Perugia Shock in the forum posting section, I came across this:

In a post written by Anonymous in response to a post from Bob:
"Also, he throws in specious statements such as the coat. Sorry Bob, but most people returning to a house with a temperature around 50 degrees would leave a jacket on for some time."

Don't most people who return to a cold house or apartment usually turn on the heater right away?

I have never heard much discussion of this, so I ask:
How come Meredith Kercher did not turn on the heater in either her bedroom or the apartment?

The fact that Meredith did not, (when I betcha that I and most others who debate this brutal murder would have done so), helps support, in my humble opinion a very early ToD when you look at the whole picture of what happened that night...

I've posted about it on Perugia Shock and InjusticeinPerugia. and now do so here, for I would like your opinion and any others who wish to chime in too...

Take it easy, RWVBWL

PS-Not everyone reads PS or IIP, so I am bringing this up here on JREF...
 
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Hi all,
Re-reading Murder in Italy yesterday, I found this:
Raffaelee Sollecito, meanwhile, had continued to proclaim his innocence, telling police that he stayed home on November 1, the night of the murder:
it was chilly outside and he had no intention of leaving his warm and comfortable flat.*
Wasn't it windy too?

If Meredith got home right before 9 and had time to kick back for even just a little while,
I bet she would have turned on the heater, to make her flat warm and comfortable too, don't you think?
And she probably would have called her Mom back, and she probably would have sent a few out a text messages, as others have mentioned before.

The fact that she did not do any of these things does lends credence, I believe, to a very early ToD,
as LondonJohn, Kevin Lowe and others strongly debate about...

Thoughts anyone?




* Page 153, Murder in Italy, Author: Candace Dempsey
 
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photo in Rome

Halides1

I have heard about the Amanda’s picture hanging in someone’s office, any idea who and when this was first raised? Sorry I didn’t realise this had already been discussed at length.

CoulsdonUK,

There is no reason that you would have known about the picture or our previous discussion. Unfortunately, some of my memories of the discussion have faded, and that is why I mentioned the previous discussion--it might be possible to search the previous threads. One can see the picture in a snippet of video from a documentary that was released in the spring of 2008, before Amanda or Raffaele had been formally charged. At some point Rudi's photo may also have been put up, but I do not know when. There was also an employee of CBS who wrote about seeing the photograph, possibly Paul Ciolino. odeed is correct to remind us that the question of the police convoy was hotly disputed. However, there is video of the three suspects leaving the police station and the cars are honking their horns.
 
Acquittal doesn't make guilty people magically innocent. It just entitles them to freedom under the law.

You're still allowed to consider the case for yourself and make your own judgement.

I agree with this, but it cuts both ways. A conviction doesn't make innocent people magically guilty. It just entitles the state to impose penalties under the law.

As for being "allowed to consider the case for yourself", this is the whole reason for the existence of this topic within JREF. One of the frustrating things about the whole debate is how often the theme comes up: "they're convicted murderers!" and "don't forget they were convicted unanimously" etc. as though citing the conclusion of the verdict had any bearing on the discussion of whether that conclusion was correct.
 
Please provide evidence that Robyn Butterworth's statement doesn't say that they didn't go to the festival together ;)

Alt+F4 really wants to cling to this one LJ, but it is just a poor Google translation. The actual Italian is andate insieme . If I am not mistaken that means gone together.

La Knox e Meredith sono andate insieme alla festa del cioccolato circa due settimane prima del delitto (trascrizione udienza 13 febbraio 2009, p. 45, esame Butterworth) ed erano insieme quando la Knox ha conosciuto il Sollecito ad un concerto di musica classica.
 
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Guess what happened to the police who were involved in the Birmingham 6 case? Nothing, no one was prosecuted.

Please provide some evidence that anyone in this case would be subjected to being fired for apologizing and saying, "sorry, we arrested the wrong people".

Evidence? What evidence? It's not a rocket science to think that the police would have to EXPLAIN their actions, incl wrongful arrest. They would have to take some kind of resposibility. They would be afraid that they may lose their jobs, at least that's what I think, that's just how it goes when someone is messing up.
 
Edgardo Giobbi Proudly Showing Picture of Amanda Knox on "Wall of Shame'

Halides1

I have heard about the Amanda’s picture hanging in someone’s office, any idea who and when this was first raised? Sorry I didn’t realise this had already been discussed at length.


Here's the video:

Edgardo Giobbi Proudly Showing Picture of Amanda Knox on "Wall of Shame'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_hq8lgw4vA
 
Greetings Danceme,
Awhile back, we were discussing the distictive walk of the person who was captured by the CCTV video camera here:

Last night I found this on an earlier posting by Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock:
"The trial to Rudy Guede (and pre-trial for Amanda and Raffaele) started this morning.
Rudy showed up with that typical way to walk (so different from the man of the garage).

That's interesting, so Frank also didn't believe it was Rudy. By the way, it's very interesting reading those old posts and comments again. I saw something I never saw before, there's a link in the comments to a cell phone video of Amanda in a court session allegedly singing and swaying in her chair in the courtroom, caused a bit of outrage in the comments section over at Franks (watch from around 1:27). Bizarre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&hl=it&v=TO52Q2dXVIU

Also apparently Amanda and Raffaele attended a number of Rudy's trial sessions it seems, didn't know that before either.

LondonJohn
Interesting point, but by far the easiest path for the police and magistrate office would have been to say we found the murderer in Germany his name is Rudy Guede, release Amanda and Raffaele like they did with Patrick that wouldn’t have addressed points you raise.

Why would they just pick on a random American student and by all accounts a well to do Italian student when they had Guede, again his arrest would not have raised an eyebrow and would have satisfied the media. Clearly they believed they had a case to answer.

Yes, it's quite unbelievable to think they would continue, knowing they had a perfect suspect in Rudy given the DNA evidence etc., and a perfectly plausible excuse to let the other two go. I think they had to believe strongly in their case to take it as far as it went. It was not some utter foolishness like saving face.

CoulsdonUK,

It has been brought up many times here that Dr. Giobbi or someone in his department in Rome had Amanda's picture on wall in the hallway. According to Darkness Descending, this was prior to Guede's arrest. In addition, the police took the three suspects (Amanda, Patrick, and Raffaele) on a convoy which detoured through old Perugia on the morning of the 6th. This, too, was debated in great detail here. I think tunnel-vision is a big part of the story.

Rudy's picture was always there too, on the same wall.
 
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I can't imagine however a person like her acting like that the next days after killing her roommate. That's yet another weird behaviour of Amanda Knox, this time working in her favour,
No, it just proves that she's a cold-blooded calculating killer with no conscience. You see how that works?

My opinion:- guilters can believe that Knox is a cold-blooded calculating killer because they can imagine themselves acting like that.
 
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