Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kauffer]

It is clear to me and Locard that there must have been evidence of her in Meredith's room that the ICSI missed. Nothing more than they found in any common area or in Filomena's room but something. They had lived in the same house for over a month and were by all accounts close at the beginning. No hairs or prints or DNA - Locard would need to reevaluate his theory.

As the ISC said - the system so screwed this up we will never know what happened. Maybe they missed Rudi's real accomplices' leave behinds.

Locard's principle relates to crime scenes - not friends sitting on each other's beds and having a chat, where there is, in particular, no wet medium within which evidence of criminal activity might be found. With regard to fingerprints, these are much more difficult to assign than is commonly thought and of course surfaces routinely are often regularly wiped.

Nevertheless, I have always thought that Amanda was rather fortunate that nothing of her was found in the room. And by that, I mean the innocent deposits that you are referring to, which might easily have "blown in" and landed in a crime scene relevant location.

But this would also be true for Mezzetti and Romanelli and Silenzi, of course.

 

[carbonjam72]

Locard's principle relates to crime scenes - not friends sitting on each other's beds and having a chat, where there is, in particular, no wet medium within which evidence of criminal activity might be found. With regard to fingerprints, these are much more difficult to assign than is commonly thought and of course surfaces routinely are often regularly wiped.

Nevertheless, I have always thought that Amanda was rather fortunate that nothing of her was found in the room. And by that, I mean the innocent deposits that you are referring to, which might easily have "blown in" and landed in a crime scene relevant location.

But this would also be true for Mezzetti and Romanelli and Silenzi, of course.

Dr Peter Gill and others have commented that DNA alone cannot be taken as conclusive proof of guilt, nor even of an actual presence in the location at the time it was deposited. The overall context of the crime scene has to be taken into account.

In this case, there are foot prints, palm prints, fingerprints, all in Meredith's wet blood, along with DNA, all leading only to Rudy Guede.

Amanda's or Raf's or anyone's DNA would mean zippo to me were it found in that room, when there is so much physical evidence of only one person, in that small contained room.

Were the crime scene outdoors, in a remote area, the whole picture changes. But in these circumstances, its pretty plain only Rudy was there at the murder.

But the Italian courts saying their absence of biological traces "was decisive", do they mean if there were DNA traces that they might have convicted?

I think Amanda and Raf were lucky to get out of this, and others like Misseri, have not been as lucky. How long will they have to wait in prison, until sanity visits sunny Italy?

 

[anglolawyer]

Dr Peter Gill and others have commented that DNA alone cannot be taken as conclusive proof of guilt, nor even of an actual presence in the location at the time it was deposited. The overall context of the crime scene has to be taken into account.

In this case, there are foot prints, palm prints, fingerprints, all in Meredith's wet blood, along with DNA, all leading only to Rudy Guede.

Amanda's or Raf's or anyone's DNA would mean zippo to me were it found in that room, when there is so much physical evidence of only one person, in that small contained room.

Were the crime scene outdoors, in a remote area, the whole picture changes. But in these circumstances, its pretty plain only Rudy was there at the murder.

But the Italian courts saying their absence of biological traces "was decisive", do they mean if there were DNA traces that they might have convicted?

I think Amanda and Raf were lucky to get out of this, and others like Misseri, have not been as lucky. How long will they have to wait in prison, until sanity visits sunny Italy?

The case against Rudy gets even better if you dump the staged burglary nonsense. He had no business being there and the smashed window gives a fair indication of how he got in (not to mention the unflushed toilet and his drinking from the bottle taken from the fridge, each of which suggest he was not an invited guest).

 

[Grinder]

Locard's principle relates to crime scenes - not friends sitting on each other's beds and having a chat, where there is, in particular, no wet medium within which evidence of criminal activity might be found. With regard to fingerprints, these are much more difficult to assign than is commonly thought and of course surfaces routinely are often regularly wiped.

Ah, it's too bad we can't ask him, I'm sure he'd be here commenting. Locard may of framed his theory in a criminal way but the principal is surely the same, even more so. Whereas a criminal tries not to leave anything behind a friend has no such motive.

Nevertheless, I have always thought that Amanda was rather fortunate that nothing of her was found in the room. And by that, I mean the innocent deposits that you are referring to, which might easily have "blown in" and landed in a crime scene relevant location.

I'm sure this crew could find single sourced "facts" that would prove Amanda was in Meredith's room multiple times.

But this would also be true for Mezzetti and Romanelli and Silenzi, of course.

Obviously Silenzi's should have been there.

Do any of our DNA people know if any of the above had their DNA or other evidence of their presence found in Meredith's room? How about unidentified pieces of unknown people found in her room?

Recently someone made up a story about the house being thoroughly cleaned shortly before the murder. At least I don't find any credible evidence of such (I haven't read Deceit or Dark Matter so I may not get the whole story) but this fable would explain no evidence but in the whole house.

I think it pretty clear that the crack ISCI didn't find a lot.

 

[Grinder]

Vixen,

Any time frame for the answers to my questions? Two I remember right now are: Was a knife ever found which tested negative for blood and positive for the person stabbed with it?; Can you produce the text messages from A to M on Halloween?

I'm sure there are more but for now those two would be great.

 

[Bill Williams]

I am sure it will lay to rest a few myths in connection with pro guilt claims about its content.

I am not so sure. Mike1711 has given an interpretation of "points of law", and how they are to be interpreted within a motivations report which to my eyes make them look like claimed, "judicial facts". All of us on both sides of the internet-fence about this have at times made comments which seem to belie a misinterpretation.

Maybe we will get to AngloLawyer''s 25th continuation even with an accurately translated M.R. It can translate the words, but can it really ever translate the legal issues underlying?

 

[acbytesla]

The case against Rudy gets even better if you dump the staged burglary nonsense. He had no business being there and the smashed window gives a fair indication of how he got in (not to mention the unflushed toilet and his drinking from the bottle taken from the fridge, each of which suggest he was not an invited guest).

Duh. The evidence in this case presents an extremely compelling argument that Rudy broke into the cottage (probably alone) and killed Meredith.

But that was TOO EASY and not as sexy as the orgy gone awry. But then again if the authorities had half a brain the Italian taxpayers wouldn't have had the pleasure of footing the bill for this nonsense and A&R wouldn't have had this adventure including 4 years paid housing in Italy and I wouldn't be friends with Mach and Grinder.

 

[sept79]

Duh. The evidence in this case presents an extremely compelling argument that Rudy broke into the cottage (probably alone) and killed Meredith.

But that was TOO EASY and not as sexy as the orgy gone awry. But then again if the authorities had half a brain the Italian taxpayers wouldn't have had the pleasure of footing the bill for this nonsense and A&R wouldn't have had this adventure including 4 years paid housing in Italy and I wouldn't be friends with Mach and Grinder.

What about Vixen ?

 

[acbytesla]

What about Vixen ?

We're more than friends. Couldn't you tell?

 

[Bill Williams]

The case against Rudy gets even better if you dump the staged burglary nonsense. He had no business being there and the smashed window gives a fair indication of how he got in (not to mention the unflushed toilet and his drinking from the bottle taken from the fridge, each of which suggest he was not an invited guest).

Duh. The evidence in this case presents an extremely compelling argument that Rudy broke into the cottage (probably alone) and killed Meredith.

But that was TOO EASY and not as sexy as the orgy gone awry. But then again if the authorities had half a brain the Italian taxpayers wouldn't have had the pleasure of footing the bill for this nonsense and A&R wouldn't have had this adventure including 4 years paid housing in Italy and I wouldn't be friends with Mach and Grinder.

I keep asking Machiavelli out for dinner, and Grinder for coffee. Still no luck.

I'm smitten by Douglas Preston who implied he had not figured out Mignini until he'd mastered the concept of dietrology. The underlying dietrological principles Mignini brought to the Kercher murder were well honed with the Narducci affair.

 

[acbytesla]

I keep asking Machiavelli out for dinner, and Grinder for coffee. Still no luck.

I'm smitten by Douglas Preston who implied he had not figured out Mignini until he'd mastered the concept of dietrology. The underlying dietrological principles Mignini brought to the Kercher murder were well honed with the Narducci affair.

I know that there have been and are cases in the US that makes little sense. The McMartin trial, Russian Faria, the kayaking case now.

So it's probably a bit unfair to focus on these strange Italian cases. Never the less, the MOF case may just be the most egregious and bizarre I've ever read about. There is no doubt in my mind that Mignini should have been in jail for that and never should have had an opportunity to rain more misery on others like Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,

Any time frame for the answers to my questions? Two I remember right now are: Was a knife ever found which tested negative for blood and positive for the person stabbed with it?; Can you produce the text messages from A to M on Halloween?

I'm sure there are more but for now those two would be great.

I am sure we already dealt with the knife issue. When you use forensic testing it's either/or luminol /tmb. The DNA will have come from Mez' blood or body tissue. I quoted a case off the internet, which was similar.

Re the desperate texts from Amanda to Mez, this was already well covered way back. I want to catch up on the Booker shortlist books, but I'll see if I can dig up the reference again.

Re the untraceable numbers on Amanda's phone: the police already know about the voicemail numbers (they are not stupid) so Explanation #Gazillion and One, doesn't cut the mustard. There remains a series of calls before and after the murder untraced, and as reported by Richard Owen of the TIMES.

 

[Vixen]

I'd like to add that this area around the UW is also heavily populated with Fraternities, Sororities dorms and apartments. There are people walking those streets at virtually any time, day or night. A party goer may have thrown rocks but so could just about anyone. One could hardly hold Amanda accountable for all these people.

But hey, it makes a good story for a lying guilter.

Nonsense, you can be vicariously liable for the behavior of people on your premises, e.g, drug taking, drug dealing, safety laws, running a brothel, etc, even if you claim to know nothing about it.

 

[Kauffer]

Ah, it's too bad we can't ask him, I'm sure he'd be here commenting. Locard may of framed his theory in a criminal way but the principal is surely the same, even more so. Whereas a criminal tries not to leave anything behind a friend has no such motive.

I'm sure this crew could find single sourced "facts" that would prove Amanda was in Meredith's room multiple times.

Obviously Silenzi's should have been there.

Do any of our DNA people know if any of the above had their DNA or other evidence of their presence found in Meredith's room? How about unidentified pieces of unknown people found in her room?

Recently someone made up a story about the house being thoroughly cleaned shortly before the murder. At least I don't find any credible evidence of such (I haven't read Deceit or Dark Matter so I may not get the whole story) but this fable would explain no evidence but in the whole house.

I think it pretty clear that the crack ISCI didn't find a lot.

It may well be that her DNA was in the room somewhere, but it wasn't on Kercher's body, the clothes she was wearing when she was killed, her purse and nor were her prints there in blood. Additionally, Locard's principle refers to an exchange. Since this was a very bloody murder, this would mean the very probable finding of blood on Amanda's clothes or at Raffaele's apartment, if she had been in the room when Kercher was killed.

It would seem likely that since Amanda had been, to all intents and purposes, living with Raffaele for ten days or so before the murder, she probably hadn't been in Kercher's room at all during this time and hardly at her apartment much. If Kercher had cleaned her room, laundered her bed linen and clothes during this time, it may well have eliminated many of her samples.

I don't think the CSIs did such a bad job in their first sweep. Good grief - they actually solved the crime! They found clear, comprehensive incriminating trace evidence of one person in a manner and a context, which does not permit for an innocent explanation of its presence.

 

[Kauffer]

I am sure we already dealt with the knife issue. When you use forensic testing it's either/or luminol /tmb. The DNA will have come from Mez' blood or body tissue. I quoted a case off the internet, which was similar.

Re the desperate texts from Amanda to Mez, this was already well covered way back. I want to catch up on the Booker shortlist books, but I'll see if I can dig up the reference again.

Re the untraceable numbers on Amanda's phone: the police already know about the voicemail numbers (they are not stupid) so Explanation #Gazillion and One, doesn't cut the mustard. There remains a series of calls before and after the murder untraced, and as reported by Richard Owen of the TIMES.

Which calls? Which numbers?

When you don't find the additional text messages, will you admit you were wrong?

You haven't dealt with Grinder's question.

 

[Vixen]

Are you seriously going to quote Nick van der Leek's disgraceful scribblings? In my country in South Africa where van der Leek lives, he is nobody.

OK. You imply therefore you are a somebody. Go on, edify us.

 

[Vixen]

Yea, wasn't he the one that covered his face and said he met Amanda with her uncle before Amanda had left Seattle and described Amanda as having a large gap in her teeth?

He was obviously warned off. He appeared heavily disguised and incoherent. He was certainly in that vicinity when he said he was.

 

[Vixen]

I'm sure she has many clients. Does she call in her mafia connections on the Supreme Court to free all of them? Obviously the Sollecito family must be well connected to put her career on the line and risk criminal prosecution for one savage murderer.

I have seen reports that claim one of them is now Godfather to the Toronto branch and that the Dominican Republic is well-populated with them, as there is no extradition treaty between Italy and DR. IOW a haven for mafiosi on the lam.

Just sayin'.

 

[Vixen]

It's one thing to tell lies, it is quite another to slow-flood the thread (contrary to ISF's M.A.) with such easily exposed lies. I mean the noise ticket itself has been posted here numerous times - showing right on it that it is the same legal ballpark as a traffic infraction.

The reason why Vixen needs to embellish so is perhaps unknown. Fact the fact of the embellishment is there.

At least this was not slut-shaming. It was implying that all speeders and parking-space freeloaders are budding psychopaths and serial killers in waiting.

Vixen has convinced me!!!

You'll find that virtually all psychopathic criminals have a background of run-ins with authority figures; parents, teachers, police, and sure enough, it's there in the backgrounds of Amanda, Rudy and Raff, three irresponsible sociopaths taking drugs together and recklessy and cruelly hazing sweet adorable Mez, who only ever wanted to do her history homework and get an early night.

 

[acbytesla]

Nonsense, you can be vicariously liable for the behavior of people on your premises, e.g, drug taking, drug dealing, safety laws, running a brothel, etc, even if you claim to know nothing about it.

But then again, they weren't on the property. It is nevertheless a massive stretch to suggest that because of a couple of partygoers doing something stupid that this demonstrates some "evil" side to Amanda.

It is just silly to even think this should be considered.