Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[JREF2010]

Raf's dad contacted an attorney and they didn't panick and arrest him.

I do believe there was some post facto mention of Edda's arrival by a judge which is the only thing that this credibility at all. As Strozzi confirmed they could have detained her. I disagree about Edda getting a lawyer quickly as after she was arrested it took some time.

If they were so worried, why didn't they call her in at all? Why didn't they call her in instead of Raf?

I think mom coming was a small factor. It's not like she was bringing Allred.

You think the mom coming was a small factor. That's a thought you have which doesnt agree with my thoughts of interrogations like this one.

From what we know, I would think the case shed light on probable dishonest police who used 20yr old kids as the victim to solve a case in a big hurry.

The interrogation is a very murky event. Edda's arrival was in my opinion, or thought, as you put it a very big deal to hurry the polizia to rush the kids into the interrogation and see if they could make them crumble with the truth.

How many interrogations do you hear of that went bad when the person being accused had parents, other adults or even better lawyers with them?

 

[Grinder]

Nothing I said was made up Grinder. We know there were police in place during the interrogation from Rome. Raffo was one, and I think another name was Profazio? I do not think they would have participated in the interrogation uninvited. Do you?

You wrote: They went to the trouble of contacting Rome to get together interrogators. They would not have gone to the trouble of doing so if there were not a plan in place for both of them.

You clearly say they brought in interrogators for the kids. Do you have anything to back that up?

Giacinto Profazio Head of the Perugia Flying Squad from Feb ’07 to July ’08 Oops

Can't find any trace of Rome interrogators except Giobbi.

I find it curious why you would zero in on my exaggeration of when the police picked up Lumumba? Most of the people familiar with this case would understand it was an exaggeration in the context of the comment. Yet you hyper-focus on the minutia, as if it validates a lack of knowledge that you supremely hold. This seems to be something you do often Grinder. I can only guess it is intended to diminish a poster while inflating your person. I would have assumed anyone with your tenor on a forum regarding this case would realize the crux of my comment was coming from someone who might just have a grasp of the details. And certainly, I would give a newer person commenting the benefit of the doubt before I went in and immediately challenged them.

You are only new here. Just as I would correct a PGP saying mixed blood or they changed their stories so many times I'll correct PIPs.

You constructed a narrative in which the police were familiar with Lumumba (whatever that means), that they tricked or cajoled Amanda to use his name and then ran out to pick him up proving they had it all planned out. But they didn't rush out. You also threw in the cops brought in from Rome, which I don't believe happened for that night. When did Giobbi arrive?

 

[Grinder]

Another good question, but I think, IF there was a plan to arrest her before her Mother arrived, they would have found a way, even if they hadn't stumbled over that text message...
The frustrating thing is that the documentation isn't complete, Amanda Knox talked to Dorothy Najir on the phone quite a lot and mentioned in her book that it was her urging her to contact the consulate. Having those wiretaps would help to paint a picture of a "planned arrest"...

I wonder why she didn't contact the embassy or a consulate if closer. I'm not sure at all that they would have arrested her without something else. As Numbers points outs often the arrest warrant basically has the statement and not much else. I think inconsistent stories might be there as well. I don't think they could have arrested her without more than they had before the statement. As Strozzi says they may have been able to hold her, maybe a material witness.

 

[Ken Dine]

You wrote: They went to the trouble of contacting Rome to get together interrogators. They would not have gone to the trouble of doing so if there were not a plan in place for both of them.

You clearly say they brought in interrogators for the kids. Do you have anything to back that up?

I've read that before too. I think even Giobbi was based in Rome?

In any event, even though I usually can back up my own statements with credible citations, I don't have time to track everything down, especially as here where CLEARLY 12 cops took part in the victorious CASE CLOSED news conference of Nov 6th ...surely, you've seen that photo?

If not, you can see the CASE CLOSED photo here:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

Do you seriously believe that small-town Perugia's police force had that many detectives on staff?

Giacinto Profazio Head of the Perugia Flying Squad from Feb ’07 to July ’08 Oops

Can't find any trace of Rome interrogators except Giobbi.

You are only new here. Just as I would correct a PGP saying mixed blood or they changed their stories so many times I'll correct PIPs.

You constructed a narrative in which the police were familiar with Lumumba (whatever that means), that they tricked or cajoled Amanda to use his name and then ran out to pick him up proving they had it all planned out. But they didn't rush out. You also threw in the cops brought in from Rome, which I don't believe happened for that night. When did Giobbi arrive?

As I recall, Mignini was still interrogating Amanda until around 5:00 am in the morning of Nov 6th, and shortly after that concluded, the police then rushed out to arrest Lumumba.

In my book, that was a "RUSH JOB" since there was certainly no need to immediately arrest Lumumba before the forensics came back.

 

[Methos]

I wonder why she didn't contact the embassy or a consulate if closer.

Me too.

I'm not sure at all that they would have arrested her without something else. As Numbers points outs often the arrest warrant basically has the statement and not much else. I think inconsistent stories might be there as well. I don't think they could have arrested her without more than they had before the statement. As Strozzi says they may have been able to hold her, maybe a material witness.

See the ETA to my post above, I think they were already "holding" her as a "material witness" at that time, telling her she wasn't allowed to leave the country/city.

I still think that IF they wanted/planned to arrest her that evening, they would have found a way. Take a look at what was enough for judge Matteini to confirm those arrests and what reasons from that confirmation made it to trial...

 

[Grinder]

Raffo was in attendance and was from Rome. There may have been two others. No names are available for any but Raffo. There is no indication they were brought in for the interrogations of the 5th and 6th.

From amandaknoxcase - Two officers were present for the signing of the statement but for the questioning Detective Lorena Zugarini testified there was various SCO officers. If you assume various means 2-3 including Ivano Raffo (SCO Rome) who never testified + Lorena Zugarini + Rita Ficarra + Anna Donnino that’s 5-6 officers plus head of homicide Monica Napoleoni coming and going.

I believe that there were actually 12 coming and going as IIRC 7 sued and 5 did not.

 

[Dougm]

Me too.


See the ETA to my post above, I think they were already "holding" her as a "material witness" at that time, telling her she wasn't allowed to leave the country/city.

I still think that IF they wanted/planned to arrest her that evening, they would have found a way. Take a look at what was enough for judge Matteini to confirm those arrests and what reasons from that confirmation made it to trial...

I think there is no question about it. Given the weak evidence we have seen them use to arrest people in both this and other cases, I am sure they would have arrested her that evening.

I find it odd to pick the "plan" of the police apart, trying to question if they planned to arrest Amanda that night. They clearly decided to get aggressive with the kids that night ... but ... not knowing exactly what was going to be said, all they could do is put the screws to them and hope one or both of them cracked, telling the cops "what they already knew to be true". Was it a plan to arrest Amanda, or was that caused by her statements about Lumumba? The answer is, "both".

 

[Methos]

Raffo was in attendance and was from Rome. There may have been two others. No names are available for any but Raffo. There is no indication they were brought in for the interrogations of the 5th and 6th.

From amandaknoxcase - Two officers were present for the signing of the statement but for the questioning Detective Lorena Zugarini testified there was various SCO officers. If you assume various means 2-3 including Ivano Raffo (SCO Rome) who never testified + Lorena Zugarini + Rita Ficarra + Anna Donnino that’s 5-6 officers plus head of homicide Monica Napoleoni coming and going.

I believe that there were actually 12 coming and going as IIRC 7 sued and 5 did not.

How many signatures are on this arrest warrant?

 

[Grinder]

See the ETA to my post above, I think they were already "holding" her as a "material witness" at that time, telling her she wasn't allowed to leave the country/city.

I still think that IF they wanted/planned to arrest her that evening, they would have found a way. Take a look at what was enough for judge Matteini to confirm those arrests and what reasons from that confirmation made it to trial...

I know they told her she couldn't leave or at least that's the story. If they had the right to hold her in Perugia or at least in Italy that surely would undercut the idea that her mother could spirit her away.

I really don't see that if she couldn't leave that Edda would be a bigger problem than Raffaele and family.

Can family be brought into police interviews?

Edda if present wouldn't have understood a word.

 

[Grinder]

How many signatures are on this arrest warrant?

This wasn't the arrest warrant, only the statement. I can't find the AW on amandaknoxcase.co site.

ETA - It is there but in Italian only - here's a link to Numbers English version

On the Italian version on the site amandaknoxcase there appear to be a list of 35 including the interpretor.

 

[Dopre]

"Giacinto Profazio Head of the Perugia Flying Squad from Feb ’07 to July ’08 Oops

Can't find any trace of Rome interrogators except Giobbi."


Far enough. I made an error in naming Profazio. But why leave out Raffo?

 

[Methos]

On the "suers":
Perugia Shock, May 2010

I had a sneak-peek, as well, at the request of trial. According to Mignini-Comodi, Amanda slandered thirteen officers and the intepreter. But she also committed something like perjury, personal abetment, incitement to crime, etc.

An impressive series of crimes which allegedly Foxy Knoxy made in the act of defending herself in court. And for which she risks about three more years...

Perugia Shock, July 2007:

According to Mignini-Comodi, Amanda slandered the police in court, but she didn’t name anyone. So Mignini asked the police station who were the officers present during the night between November 5 and 6, and the Questore provided him twelve names.

Besides the slander, Amanda allegedly did some other crimes with her words, while defending herself, and for all this she risks at least two years, plus the compensation that she, when convicted, will have to grant to the victims. The dozen, indeed, did constitute themselves a civil party (=they aim to be compensated) at the last hearing.

Perugia Shock, October 2010

NO WORRIES FOR AMANDA, Only Eight Against Her Now

Today’s hearing, being just a technical hearing, brought no decision except an adjournment to November 8. The only formal action realized was the declaration of constitution as civil party (damaged persons) of seven policemen and the interpreter. Their representative Francesco Maresca didn’t explain why the other four didn’t do the same, adding that they can still file their declaration at next hearing. An occurrence which, indeed, appears to be highly recommended, so it will be not only eight against one.

 

[Dougm]

I know they told her she couldn't leave or at least that's the story. If they had the right to hold her in Perugia or at least in Italy that surely would undercut the idea that her mother could spirit her away.

I really don't see that if she couldn't leave that Edda would be a bigger problem than Raffaele and family.

Can family be brought into police interviews?

Edda if present wouldn't have understood a word.

I think you are missing the potential mindset of the PLE, especially as it relates to an American. The difference is that Raffaele and family are Italians, and have a much stronger connection to Italy. And Raffaele's family being present locally is a given, but with Amanda it is different:

* Much less predictable
* Much harder to retrieve if she was able to leave the country
* USA is the 500 pound gorilla, capable of throwing all sorts of impediments into the works
* Given Mignini and company's odd views of women, my guess is that a mother showing up from America would be a much bigger deal than a father coming from Bari (especially one who had not done anything to that point to intervene)

It's not that they were specifically afraid of Edda, it is that, once Edda arrives, the dynamic changes. They no longer have exclusive control over this naive girl. It was not the only time to act, but if they didn't, they might have been kicking themselves later.

 

[Grinder]

"Giacinto Profazio Head of the Perugia Flying Squad from Feb ’07 to July ’08 Oops

Can't find any trace of Rome interrogators except Giobbi."


Far enough. I made an error in naming Profazio. But why leave out Raffo?

I couldn't find him before but I've already posted his name in a list that indicates he's from Rome. I couldn't find him because he didn't testify.

I haven't been able to verify when they arrived in Perugia.

FYI - if you hit quote when responding to a post, that post will be shaded and then your comment isn't.

 

[Grinder]

I think you are missing the potential mindset of the PLE, especially as it relates to an American. The difference is that Raffaele and family are Italians, and have a much stronger connection to Italy. And Raffaele's family being present locally is a given, but with Amanda it is different:

* Much less predictable
* Much harder to retrieve if she was able to leave the country
* USA is the 500 pound gorilla, capable of throwing all sorts of impediments into the works
* Given Mignini and company's odd views of women, my guess is that a mother showing up from America would be a much bigger deal than a father coming from Bari (especially one who had not done anything to that point to intervene)

It's not that they were specifically afraid of Edda, it is that, once Edda arrives, the dynamic changes. They no longer have exclusive control over this naive girl. It was not the only time to act, but if they didn't, they might have been kicking themselves later.

No, no I get it, but wouldn't many of your arguments also go against them picking an American as a convenient victim?

But if people here are correct that she couldn't leave then that would be off the table.

 

[Methos]

This wasn't the arrest warrant, only the statement. I can't find the AW on amandaknoxcase.co site.

ETA - It is there but in Italian only - here's a link to Numbers English version

On the Italian version on the site amandaknoxcase there appear to be a list of 35 including the interpretor.

Let's not play word games, please.

Arrest warrant

Quite a bunch of people, don't you think?

 

[Dougm]

No, no I get it, but wouldn't many of your arguments also go against them picking an American as a convenient victim?

But if people here are correct that she couldn't leave then that would be off the table.

Yes, but I don't think they picked her as a suspect because she was an American. I think that some of their misinterpretation of her behavior was because of cultural differences, but I don't think they singled her out for prosecution because she was American.

Some disagree with this. But I think there is a difference between some Italians having problems with Americans in general (which I think is true), and that motivating them to arrest Amanda solely, or even mostly, because she was an American. I think they arrested her because they thought she was involved.

 

[Grinder]

Let's not play word games, please.

Arrest warrant

Quite a bunch of people, don't you think?

I would never

There were only a few names on the statement and I did find the AW and counted 35 names which included the PP, the translator and I think the tea ladies


ETA - the document you linked to is different than one on the akc site. Maybe you could look and explain the difference.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/notice-of-arrest-knox.pdf

 

[Grinder]

Yes, but I don't think they picked her as a suspect because she was an American. I think that some of their misinterpretation of her behavior was because of cultural differences, but I don't think they singled her out for prosecution because she was American.

Some disagree with this. But I think there is a difference between some Italians having problems with Americans in general (which I think is true), and that motivating them to arrest Amanda solely, or even mostly, because she was an American. I think they arrested her because they thought she was involved.

Okay. You mentioned reasons why the American mother would be worrisome which included US power etc.

I moved on from the 5th or actually backwards saying those same things would tend to keep them from picking her to frame.

And we agree on why they arrested her - I was addressing those that argue framing/convenient/etc.

 

[Methos]

I would never

There were only a few names on the statement and I did find the AW and counted 35 names which included the PP, the translator and I think the tea ladies

Thank you

I came up with 36 plus the translator (where's an OCR when you need it )
Still quite a lot of people...