Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

"Why would they think she was a cunning liar? They thought she was a stupid liar - they even told her."

Grinder, why are you arguing what kind of liar she was being presented as? The point is they thought she was a liar until she told them the truth they knew.

IMO a lot of this is splitting hairs and arguing for arguments' sake, rather than to shed light.

The record is clear.... by the time of Lumumba's arrest, Mignini is effectively in charge. He orders Lumumba's arrest.

Why? Because Amanda accused him. It's that simple. Acc. to Mignini Amanda is a cunning liar, but because (with his dietrological mind) he can see through it, she becomes a stupid liar.

This is not rocket science.

It's only later that Mignini can double down on what kind of a cunning liar he believes Amanda to me - throwing the investigation off by naming Lumumba with malice aforethought.

Once again, this goes against the narrative Follain constructs. On page 135-135 of his book, Amanda really does have a psychic break, naming Lumumba. Unlike other places where Follain inserts/implies that Amanda knows something the others do not - not here. Follain narrates it straight. Amanda broke, named Lumumba with no help from Donnino or even much pressure from Ficarra about the meaning of "See you later."

 

[Ken Dine]

I can see that they would have some concern and might have moved up their schedule but they didn't even call her in by 10 pm the night before.

When did they find out Edda was coming?

Perhaps, their interrogation team wasn't assembled and ready to go on the night of Nov 4th? After all, 5 of the 12 detectives had to drive there from Rome.

There could be other reasons.

They must have know over 24 hours before her scheduled arrival.

The police had been tapping Amanda's phone for several days by that point, so surely the police heard Edda tell Amanda about her concerns and travel plans.

I suspect if Amanda wasn't in custody when she arrived, that Edda would have immediately taken Amanda to the train station and headed for Germany. At that point the police would have had to wave bye-bye, or that would have forced them to arrest Amanda to keep her from leaving Italy (on mere suspicions but scant evidence), and once they arrested Amanda she was entitled to a lawyer.

Is there any evidence that they did anything except call in Raf?

The FACT that 12 detectives were at the police station on hand to interview both kids is PROOF that they were all set up with a game plan to break Amanda that night.

Seriously, detectives usually keep office hours, so can you explain why 12 detectives were on hand at that late hour on that night if this hadn't been planned out?

 

[Grinder]

"What does being familiar with Lumumba mean?"

What do you think it means? After this many years debating on this forum, I would think you would know what it means.

Do you mean they knew he had a club and Dj'd around or that Amanda worked for him or that he and Amanda had texted the night of the murder?

"When do you think they first saw the content of the text message?"

How would I know the answer to this? Furthermore, why would you expect me to know the answer to this?

Well you are saying that they were waiting for her to use his name. Why would they do that?

"What time do you think they picked up Lumumba? A hint is that he was feeding his son breakfast well past the midnight time she named him."

So what?

You said the minute she named him they rushed out to arrest him and that's false. If they were all set up to get Patrick as you state and make your point by saying they raced out the minute she named him and that wasn't vaguely true then perhaps your point isn't valid.

 

[Grinder]

It looks like the connection between the arrival of Mrs Mellas in Perugia and the arrest of Amanda Knox was made by Judge Matteini in her reasoning for denying house-arrest (another document that isn't available )
Frank Sfarzo had this on Perugia Shock in the post "Fight for the Freedom 2":

Thanks again. I knew there was a mention or at least Frank says so - what a weird thing for the judge to mention. She is basically accusing Edda of being willing to help her flee.

 

[Dopre]

IMO a lot of this is splitting hairs and arguing for arguments' sake, rather than to shed light.

After lurking here off and on for a few years, I have come to realize much of the debate with Grinder is exactly that. I have my "intuition" that tells me the motivation in it for him. However, I will spare everyone my armchair analysis of it.

 

[Grinder]

I

The record is clear.... by the time of Lumumba's arrest, Mignini is effectively in charge. He orders Lumumba's arrest.

It's only later that Mignini can double down on what kind of a cunning liar he believes Amanda to me - throwing the investigation off by naming Lumumba with malice aforethought.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that Mignini was in charge from the start.

You haven't provided the time, place and to whom Mignini made the actress/cunning liar remark.

If the PLE were all so concerned about Edda why did one of the lead cops say release them after the interrogation?

 

[analemma]

Exactly . Well said.

Yes
I agree
Well said Strozzi

 

[Ken Dine]

Raf's dad contacted an attorney and they didn't panick and arrest him.

I do believe there was some post facto mention of Edda's arrival by a judge which is the only thing that this credibility at all. As Strozzi confirmed they could have detained her. I disagree about Edda getting a lawyer quickly as after she was arrested it took some time.

If they were so worried, why didn't they call her in at all? Why didn't they call her in instead of Raf?

London John and I discussed this thoroughly the other day, and we both agreed one way or the other, that Amanda would have been interrogated that night, we only disagreed on when the police would have likely started in with Amanda (we were only an hour or so in disagreement on her interrogation's start point):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10750273#post10750273

I think mom coming was a small factor. It's not like she was bringing Allred.

I strongly disagree! If the police were unable to get Amanda to confess (such as it was) in the wee hours of Nov 6th, then Edda certainly would have promptly taken Amanda either to Germany, or back to the USA. I doubt if Edda would have stayed long enough to even need a hotel room.

If Edda promptly moved to take Amanda out of Italy (which surely was her intention), then that certainly would have forced their hand, where the police would have had to arrest Amanda to keep her from leaving italy (based upon zero evidence), which would have kicked in Amanda's protections, such as the right to have a lawyer present during questioning as a suspect.

The police may not have been ready on Nov 5th. With Edda there to muck things up, Nov 7th would be too late. So, Nov 6th was their last night to get a confession from a lawyerless Amanda!

How can you not see this?

 

[Grinder]

After lurking here off and on for a few years, I have come to realize much of the debate with Grinder is exactly that. I have my "intuition" that tells me the motivation in it for him. However, I will spare everyone my armchair analysis of it.

Did you provide the information of the police called in from Rome for the night of the 5th?

Why would you add they raced out to get Lumumba the minute she named him?

Do you produce these falsehoods because you actually think they are correct or to bolster your intuitive theories?

I don't understand why people that just want to be cheerleaders don't just post at a PIP site.

Whereas when Vixen posts false things an army attacks when people like you say things that are made up, not so much.

 

[analemma]

London John and I discussed this thoroughly the other day, and we both agreed one way or the other, that Amanda would have been interrogated that night, we only disagreed on when the police would have likely started in with Amanda (we were only an hour or so in disagreement on her interrogation's start point):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10750273#post10750273




I strongly disagree! If the police were unable to get Amanda to confess (such as it was) in the wee hours of Nov 6th, then Edda certainly would have promptly taken Amanda either to Germany, or back to the USA. I doubt if Edda would have stayed long enough to even need a hotel room.

If Edda promptly moved to take Amanda out of Italy (which surely was her intention), then that certainly would have forced their hand, where the police would have had to arrest Amanda to keep her from leaving italy (based upon zero evidence), which would have kicked in Amanda's protections, such as the right to have a lawyer present during questioning as a suspect.

The police may not have been ready on Nov 5th. With Edda there to muck things up, Nov 7th would be too late. So, Nov 6th was their last night to get a confession from a lawyerless Amanda!

How can you not see this?

Very true.
The cops had ABSOLUTELY no justification for holding Amanda until the night of 11/5.
You have presented perhaps the fifth CLEAR description today alone of the threat that Edda presented to the plans of the thugs, and yet this point, which I see as obvious, is still being disputed.
Can someone tell me what I am missing?

 

[Methos]

Thanks again. I knew there was a mention or at least Frank says so - what a weird thing for the judge to mention. She is basically accusing Edda of being willing to help her flee.

It would be interesting to have that document.
The weird thing is that she seems to confirm that there is a connection between "the arrival" and "the arrest" not to say that "the arrival" caused "the arrest"...

 

[Bill Williams]

Hmmm, I was under the impression that Mignini was in charge from the start.

Just to go all Grinder on Grinder.....

"The start"? Define "the start". Someone else was in charge until Mignini was called in. It was Ficarra who halted what is known as the "1:45 am" interrogation, and once stopped Ficarra reported to Napoleoni who was, I'm assuming, "in charge" at that point as the lead detective.

You haven't provided the time, place and to whom Mignini made the actress/cunning liar remark

I've provided the page references in Follain's book. Unfortunately, true to the true crime format, there are no footnotes.

If the PLE were all so concerned about Edda why did one of the lead cops say release them after the interrogation?

Now to REALLY go all Grinder on Grinder....

.... the sole source of that remark is Follain. Why would this be used by someone who trashes True Crime authors to create doubt about whether or not the PLE was (or wasn't) concerned about Edda's arrival?

 

[Ken Dine]

What does being familiar with Lumumba mean?

It means that based upon the 5 African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom, the police knew that an African perp had killed Meredith.

The police also suspected Amanda, and since Lumumba was the only African man the police were aware of that Amanda had a relationship with, CASE CLOSED!

Why is that so difficult to grok?

When do you think they first saw the content of the text message? What time do you think they picked up Lumumba? A hint is that he was feeding his son breakfast well past the midnight time she named him. Why would they think she was a cunning liar? They thought she was a stupid liar - they even told her.

Since the police had been tapping Amanda's phone for several days they were likely already aware of the Nov 1st text message exchanges between Amanda & Lumumba even before they found it on her phone during the Nov 6th wee-hour interview.

As for picking up Lumumba early the next day, the police were divided on doing that with some arguing to ask him in for an interview and/or keep him under surveillance, but saner heads didn't prevail that morning.

It almost seems like you're blaming Amanda for the police prematurely (and stupidly) rushing off half-cocked to arrest Lumumba before the forensics was even back in? WHY?

Lumumba gave them no indication that he was planning on fleeing!

This debacle was one giant police FUBAR from start to finish.

 

[Bill Williams]

Did you provide the information of the police called in from Rome for the night of the 5th?

Why would you add they raced out to get Lumumba the minute she named him?
Do you produce these falsehoods because you actually think they are correct or to bolster your intuitive theories?

I don't understand why people that just want to be cheerleaders don't just post at a PIP site.

Whereas when Vixen posts false things an army attacks when people like you say things that are made up, not so much.

Because that is, in effect, what they did. It was not the FOA who said this, it was consistent among everyone, including John Follain. Thy rushed out to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him.

Using the weasel word "cheerleaders" does not mask this.

 

[Grinder]

It would be interesting to have that document.
The weird thing is that she seems to confirm that there is a connection between "the arrival" and "the arrest" not to say that "the arrival" caused "the arrest"...

Yes this was the one piece on this that has weight. Why would the judge have said it? It's similar to Goibbi saying that he ordered them both in. Post facto comments that may or may not be true that somehow make them look better.

I agree with you that it would be nice to see the original. Is Frank the only source?

What would have happened if she had erased the outgoing message as well as the incoming.

 

[Grinder]

Because that is, in effect, what they did. It was not the FOA who said this, it was consistent among everyone, including John Follain. Thy rushed out to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him.

Using the weasel word "cheerleaders" does not mask this.

As it turns out the description was super accurate as a web search validated.

They did not go out for Lumumba for hours something like 6:30 AM.

Why would someone change the reality to the minute when it was hours? My intuition tells me the narrative of them "being familiar" with Lumumba and rushing out the minute she mentioned his name is one designed to make people believe the police had it all worked out well in advance. Throw in the cops from Rome brought in for the interrogation for emphasis.

ETA - you used to post that a high level cop wanted to release them Ciccardi or something like that - so apparently not all were ready to rush out and in fact they didn't.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes this was the one piece on this that has weight. Why would the judge have said it? It's similar to Goibbi saying that he ordered them both in. Post facto comments that may or may not be true that somehow make them look better.

I agree with you that it would be nice to see the original. Is Frank the only source?

What would have happened if she had erased the outgoing message as well as the incoming.

I think that is the most profound question in this thread since the March 27 exonerations. Seriously.

My knee jerk response was, "Then Grinder and Bill would have never met each other."

But on that question turns this whole debate. If that message had not been there:

• According to the guilters, Bill and Grinder would not have met each other, because the whole case of guilt requires Amanda to spontaneously name Lumumba.
  
• According to the innocentisti, Ficarra and Napoleoni would have simply leaned on Amanda because they'd been successful leaning on Raffaele.

But it cannot be denied that Grinder has just zeroed in on one of those, "boy I wish I'd asked that," questions.

 

[Bill Williams]

As it turns out the description was super accurate as a web search validated.

They did not go out for Lumumba for hours something like 6:30 AM.

Why would someone change the reality to the minute when it was hours? My intuition tells me the narrative of them "being familiar" with Lumumba and rushing out the minute she mentioned his name is one designed to make people believe the police had it all worked out well in advance. Throw in the cops from Rome brought in for the interrogation for emphasis.

I think your analysis is way off here. But that may just be me.

 

[Ken Dine]

Yes this was the one piece on this that has weight. Why would the judge have said it? It's similar to Goibbi saying that he ordered them both in. Post facto comments that may or may not be true that somehow make them look better.

I agree with you that it would be nice to see the original. Is Frank the only source?

What would have happened if she had erased the outgoing message as well as the incoming.

The police had obtained permission to wire-tap Amanda's phone shortly after the murder, and while voice communications are lost unless recorded in real-time, text messages are likely stored on a server, so the police knew about those Nov 1st text-messages before Nov 6th. Indeed, the police probably reviewed both the relevant outgoing & incoming messages before the wee-hour interrogation on Nov 6th.

 

[Methos]

Yes this was the one piece on this that has weight. Why would the judge have said it? It's similar to Goibbi saying that he ordered them both in. Post facto comments that may or may not be true that somehow make them look better.

I agree with you that it would be nice to see the original. Is Frank the only source?

That's the question, especially, because if she really said/wrote it (Amanda Knox also repeats that sentence in her book, I haven't, yet, found another source.) it wouldn't make them look better, because it would make the whole "she wasn't a suspect until she made those statements" thing fall apart.

What would have happened if she had erased the outgoing message as well as the incoming.

Another good question, but I think, IF there was a plan to arrest her before her Mother arrived, they would have found a way, even if they hadn't stumbled over that text message...
The frustrating thing is that the documentation isn't complete, Amanda Knox talked to Dorothy Najir on the phone quite a lot and mentioned in her book that it was her urging her to contact the consulate. Having those wiretaps would help to paint a picture of a "planned arrest"...

ETA: I'm going to have a closer looks at those wiretaps
Nov 3, 2007, 04.54pm: pages 2 and 3:

A: Yes, I’ve asked them if I can leave and they said no; they said I could not leave and they did not know when I would be allowed to leave until the magistrate calls them in three days. But I asked them: “What does it mean? Does it mean that I won’t be able to leave, say, for a month? Or does it mean I won’t be able to leave until all this story ends?” And they went: “We don’t know.” And I said: “I was planning to go home to the United States for Christmas.” But they said, “Ah… We should see if you can do that in three days, when the magistrate calls.”
S: I think… you know what? If they start it [again], I think you should call the American embassy. {4}
A: Yes. Well, I mean, I’m waiting to hear what the magistrate says but if they say I can’t leave, they are ********ting me [sono cazzate]! I haven’t seen anything.
S: You know what? In reality, if you go to… Did you tell them you wanted to go to Germany?
A: Yes, I told them I wanted to go to Germany and they told me, “Don’t leave Italy. You may not leave Italy.”
S: Well, you know what? Because… if they really want to question you, they can also do that in Germany.
A: Yes, but… I don’t know that, well, they have said they would have to make

come back to Italy, but I don’t know how things really are.

S: Yes, but if they… if they tell you again that they are not in a position to tell you if you may leave or not…
A: No, (---)
S: All right, you know… you tell them right away: OK, you must put me in contact with the American embassy to have…A: Yes.
S: … to have legal assistance. {6}
A: Yes, I know, I’ll do that. Because there’s no way they tell me: “Oh yes, by the way, you must stay around here without a reason.” Especially when I’m without a home… to hell! No way!

S: Yes. And if they bother you again, let me know and I’ll make sure to put the embassy in motion.A: Yes. {7}
S: Because they will definitely help you, Amanda.