Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[lonepinealex]

Every one of those services printed it. The information could very well be false, or a misinterpretation, so who really knows.

Given the track record of the media with this case, perhaps it is better to wait until the motivations report.

However, let me ask you a question: how much money do you have in your pocket, right now? Put it in an envelope, and if these news reports turn out to be true, I will give you my address....

Oh I'm not saying I disbelieve them, I'm just saying the quantity of them has no bearing on the validity, because they're a copy paste job.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Cart wheel girl got off, did she?

extradition would have been messy.

Can Anyone spare a 25k foot view of why the top court in Italy did what they did?

I suspect they did it to keep Italy from being the laughing stock of the modern world for convicting college kids of being involved in a Satanic ritual murder there was no evidence occurred.

It might remind people of their Bruno burning/Galileo convicting history.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh I'm not saying I disbelieve them, I'm just saying the quantity of them has no bearing on the validity, because they're a copy paste job.

True. Strictly speaking, only one official news organ said that the two were completely innocent - the news-service of the Italian Judiciary. Everything else is copy and paste!

How many different ways can a secondary-source say the same thing?

 

[Strozzi]

Ah, thanks again.

In all seriousness, was there no video of the infamous cartwheel?

That is a good question. I was going to answer "no" because it has never been said that there is. The stretching/splitz incident which was exagerated/inflamed into a cartwheel occurred in a corridor waiting area near an elevator in Perugia police headquarters. We know that at least one corridor waiting area there had secret microphones installed to record people's conversations. I suppose it is possible that a disguised or overt video camera could video the area. Let me answer your question by saying that no video recording by the police has ever been disclosed by the police or prosecutor.

 

[komponisto]

Peggy Ganong has announced that PMF.ORG is closing.

For my money, she consulted a lawyer.

Looks like an attempt at a graceful exit.

To which one might reasonably say: by all means, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

(Or perhaps: thanks for stopping by.)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That is a good question. I was going to answer "no" because it has never been said that there is. The stretching/splitz incident which was exagerated/inflamed into a cartwheel occurred in a corridor waiting area near an elevator in Perugia police headquarters. We know that at least one corridor waiting area there had secret microphones installed to record people's conversations. I suppose it is possible that a disguised or overt video camera could video the area. Let me answer your question by saying that no video recording by the police has ever been disclosed by the police or prosecutor.

Unless it's a false memory, I believe I saw the police station video of the cartwheel. Of course it could be a false memory. I shall now have to check.

False memories is ahead by one story: Knox says it didn't happen.

Yep. it appears there are no images of the event.

 

[AmyStrange]

-

How accurate is this (the hilited part)?:

"Amanda Knox Targeted With Death Threats Because She 'Got Away With Murder'

http://www.inquisitr.com/1977484/am...ath-threats-because-she-got-away-with-murder/

"Amanda Knox may have been acquitted in the murder of Meredith Kercher, but numerous people still believe that the Seattle woman is guilty of killing her. That's why she's been the target of death threats recently. Morning News USA reports that the FBI is investigating a series of death threats received by the twice-convicted/twice-acquitted Seattle woman. However, the same news report claims that most of the threats are coming from British citizens - folks who are angry that she was acquitted... "

-

 

[Dan O.]

It's not even certain that there was any reporting of the supposed cartwheel before the case went to trial. The first mention of the cartwheel was by Rita Ficarra in her testimony at the end of Feburary 2009.

 

[codyjuneau]

.
I don't recall ever seeing this information so I thought I would post it.

If you check the photo at the following link, there is a yellow shopping bag with little designs on it. Camouflaged almost as one of the designs is, what I think may be the bra clasp. Its location is almost exactly where the clasp was found, except that the shopping bag, and other items, were not there when it was found.

The link to the photo: http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/9.jpg

Cody
.

 

[Bill Williams]

Looks like an attempt at a graceful exit.

To which one might reasonably say: by all means, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

(Or perhaps: thanks for stopping by.)

M'God, it really is all over. Peggy cannot even get the verdict right, she calls the pair, the "formerly convicted". Holy Dinah, it is Italian Law 101 that the ONLY verdict which can be applied to the pair is innocent. Did not do the crime. Nothing prior to March 27, 2015 counts, regardless of how the confirmation biased mind works.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[acbytesla]

This is why Mignini has to go to jail. Justice must be seen to be done, and Mignini has to be recognized as having criminally ensnared two people he knew to be innocent. To restore Amanda and Raf to their full status as citizens, Mignini must be recognized as a convicted criminal.

Not going to happen. While I think Mignini is despicable, a creep and certainly guilty of over reaching, I don't see how anyone can prove that he committed a crime.

 

[davefoc]

I suspect they did it to keep Italy from being the laughing stock of the modern world for convicting college kids of being involved in a Satanic ritual murder there was no evidence occurred.

It might remind people of their Bruno burning/Galileo convicting history.

Hi Skeptic Ginger, I was hoping to some posts by you after the verdict. As the founder of this rather strange cultural phenomena at JREF and now ISF, I wondered what your thoughts might be on your creation.

As to your post, I think you might be right, but they may also have also done it because they thought AK/RS were innocent and the time had come to stop the various little corrupt legal fiefdoms in Italy from continuing on with their sad nonsense.

 

[anglolawyer]

In the old days, the Italian system used to have a distinction similar to the Scottish one between verdicts of "not guilty" and "not proven". This was later abolished, but because in Italy the public (including the media) is as ignorant of their own legal system as is the case in every other country, people keep talking about it as if it were still in force.

It isn't. There is only one level of acquittal, just like in the US (and, I assume, the UK outside of Scotland).

Confusion is often caused by the fact that there are indeed different types of acquittal in Italian law ("for not having committed the act", "because the act did not take place", etc.). These are not degrees of innocence; they are descriptions of different ways in which one can be innocent.

I am sure that made sense when you typed it and I have no reason to doubt you but that is really laughable if true. I cannot imagine in our jurisdiction a 7 year process which results in a verdict of 'guess what? nothing happened in the first place'. Those careless cops! Gumming up the works with non-existent crimes. Somebody better have a word with them.

 

[davefoc]

Not going to happen. While I think Mignini is despicable, a creep and certainly guilty of over reaching, I don't see how anyone can prove that he committed a crime.

I agree, but it seems at least within the realm of the plausible that if the truth became public about some of Mignini's actions with regard to this case there could be legal trouble for Mignini. A few possibilities:
1. The dealings with Guede. What exactly was going on with regard to the pre-trial negotiations with Guede? So far he has managed to keep that secret but it remains possible that information about the negotiations and agreement could leak out. If any of what was leaked out proved that Mignini went forward with the prosecution in the face of significant exculpatory evidence I would think he would face at least sanctions if not criminal prosecution.
2. The taking of crime scene photos that he may have sold. I doubt that he is legally allowed to use his office to create and sell crime scene photos to the tabloids.
3.He was probably the individual behind the gross misrepresentation of the bathroom photos that appeared to show blood all over the place. Leaking photos with the intent to slander an individual through a misrepresentation of the facts sounds a lot like calumnia to me.
4. Conspiring with Stefanoni to produce false evidence. I don't know that he did this but it is in the land of plausible that he did and it is in the land of plausible that evidence proving it could surface.
5. Mistreatment of Lumumba. From the outside this looks like an illegal use of his office to imprison an individual without a just cause and to destroy their business without any legal justification.

But I suppose your point was that proving any of the above or any similar kinds of things would be an uphill battle and even if some of them could be proved they still might not result in criminal charges against Mignini.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hi Skeptic Ginger, I was hoping to some posts by you after the verdict. As the founder of this rather strange cultural phenomena at JREF and now ISF, I wondered what your thoughts might be on your creation.

As to your post, I think you might be right, but they may also have also done it because they thought AK/RS were innocent and the time had come to stop the various little corrupt legal fiefdoms in Italy from continuing on with their sad nonsense.

Hi Dave.

The whole thing has been ridiculous from the start. What's sad is that a bizarro prosecutor can ruin so many lives, Knox's and Sollecito's, but also Kercher's significant others who believe justice wasn't served. I agree, the Italian Supreme Court may have simply been rational human beings looking at a lack of convincing evidence.

I was replying to the post that said the decision could have been tainted with politics. Yes, politics of not wanting to be embarrassed by the lunacy of this case.

 

[Kaosium]

I think this is very true. Reading some of the forensic journals this is something the more academic forensic scientists at least are aware of. This is the point Gill is making. Trace DNA provides a very hight statistical certainty of identity. But what is the significance of trace DNA. It is not synonymous with direct contact whatever some people may think. It certainly is not synonymous with criminal action which is what some lay people think. The discussion in the literature is about the responsibility of the expert forensic scientist to explain to the court the uncertainties about the significance of trace DNA.

This is clearly a greater issue with a single trace DNA finding such as Sollecito DNA on the bra hook where there is not a clear explanation for how the DNA would have been directly transferred by touch with no DNA transfer to e.g. the bra strap which should have been a better surface to collect DNA. Clearly if you have multiple trace DNA samples as with Guede it is less likely they are all due to innocent transfer rather than direct contact, but one needs to be aware of the possibility of a common pathway of contamination, e.g. all samples picked up by the same pair of gloves, or all processed together.

The difficulty where you have a commercial system with labs competing for police forensic work is the danger that giving opinions favourable to the customer wins custom. There is an intrinsic danger that police labs give opinions favouring the police view.

I suspect there is not an ideal solution. I think states should have at least one arm's length from the police forensic institution, probably part of an academic institution that can maintain standards, give independent opinions. The UK has a forensic regulator, and if forensic scientists are perceived to give biased evidence the regulator can investigate and potentially exclude them from giving evidence as an expert in future if the case were proven.

Thank you, I especially value your input but have not had the time or inclination to concentrate on weighty and serious subjects lately to give your post a better reply.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think this is very true. Reading some of the forensic journals this is something the more academic forensic scientists at least are aware of. This is the point Gill is making. Trace DNA provides a very hight statistical certainty of identity. But what is the significance of trace DNA. It is not synonymous with direct contact whatever some people may think. It certainly is not synonymous with criminal action which is what some lay people think. The discussion in the literature is about the responsibility of the expert forensic scientist to explain to the court the uncertainties about the significance of trace DNA.

This is clearly a greater issue with a single trace DNA finding such as Sollecito DNA on the bra hook where there is not a clear explanation for how the DNA would have been directly transferred by touch with no DNA transfer to e.g. the bra strap which should have been a better surface to collect DNA. Clearly if you have multiple trace DNA samples as with Guede it is less likely they are all due to innocent transfer rather than direct contact, but one needs to be aware of the possibility of a common pathway of contamination, e.g. all samples picked up by the same pair of gloves, or all processed together.

The difficulty where you have a commercial system with labs competing for police forensic work is the danger that giving opinions favourable to the customer wins custom. There is an intrinsic danger that police labs give opinions favouring the police view.

I suspect there is not an ideal solution. I think states should have at least one arm's length from the police forensic institution, probably part of an academic institution that can maintain standards, give independent opinions. The UK has a forensic regulator, and if forensic scientists are perceived to give biased evidence the regulator can investigate and potentially exclude them from giving evidence as an expert in future if the case were proven.

Good points. Perhaps you'd like to comment on how trace DNA might have been transferred to Jon Bennet's underwear, another case where, while the DNA could have been useful if it connected a suspect with other evidence connecting him to the crime, the mere presence of trace DNA did not exonerate the parents in the case. It could have been as innocent as DNA left from the assembly line of the underwear manufacturer.

DNA is important evidence, but it has to make sense in light of other evidence. Trace DNA of a suspect with no other connection to the victim, sure, that's critical evidence, if there is other evidence against the suspect and no explanation for its presence. Trace DNA of a person who was known to have been in the house and whose DNA may have been in the lab doing the testing, while the actual murderer left DNA and other evidence all over the scene, is not so significant.

 

[Kaosium]

Shortly after the acquittal someone fired a shot over my house. Probably a coincidence, but it's kinda creepy being as I know that some of those involved in this cause like The Machine (who's involved in other guilt projects as well) know where I live. Sometimes people get all worked up when on the internet these days and it bubbles over and they do something that they regret.

No real harm done and since the MPD is on it I don't need to think about it anymore. I do miss the days when it wasn't so easy to track people down online because sometimes people do and write things that aren't necessarily indicative of their character when they get too worked up or perhaps are drunk.

 

[Dan O.]

.
I don't recall ever seeing this information so I thought I would post it.

If you check the photo at the following link, there is a yellow shopping bag with little designs on it. Camouflaged almost as one of the designs is, what I think may be the bra clasp. Its location is almost exactly where the clasp was found, except that the shopping bag, and other items, were not there when it was found.

The link to the photo: http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/9.jpg

Cody
.

So let's play 'find the yellow shopping bag'.

In the photos of Dec 18 it shows up 3 times:
019.jpg, 020.jpg it is on the other side of the room being used to cover the main blood spill so the camera stand isn't sitting in Meredith's blood. These were taken at about 2:45pm. The clasp is photographed on the floor next to the lamp cord at 3:52pm. at 4:01pm Meredith's bloody sweatshirt has been dropped on top of the lamp cord seen in 064.jpg. And in the wider view of 065.jpg we see the shopping bag at the back corner under the desk.

In the video of Dec 18, the bag shows up first in the bottom right corner of the frame at 02:49in front of Meredith's desk. And again at 06:26, and 28:29.

At time index 37:29, the camera man pulls the junk out from inside the desk and the camera pans back to see the shopping bag and the first view of the white spot. At 37:40 there is a very clear view and this is definitely not the bra clasp. The frame at time index 38:10 matches the above photo.

At index 40:15 the shopping bag is being placed under the camera stand.

In part 2 of the video at index 00:13:41, the shopping bag is on top of the debris pile in front of the desk. At 00:34:26, most of the debris has been moved away and the clasp is "discovered" on the bare floor.