Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

They said they were innocent? Is that typical in the Italian system? (Typical in the sense of something they do, as opposed to something they do often as I can't imagine it happens a lot)

The really rare thing was that the Supreme Court overruled a conviction without sending it back down for further fact-finding. I am not sure that there's ever been a lower court acquittal reversed by Cassazione without sending back down.... but this case is rare in that it is a complete acquittal.

In essence, it is a reinstatement of the Hellmann verdict of 2011, although I would not bet my shirt on that precisely.

 

[komponisto]

They said they were innocent? Is that typical in the Italian system? (Typical in the sense of something they do, as opposed to something they do often as I can't imagine it happens a lot)

In the old days, the Italian system used to have a distinction similar to the Scottish one between verdicts of "not guilty" and "not proven". This was later abolished, but because in Italy the public (including the media) is as ignorant of their own legal system as is the case in every other country, people keep talking about it as if it were still in force.

It isn't. There is only one level of acquittal, just like in the US (and, I assume, the UK outside of Scotland).

Confusion is often caused by the fact that there are indeed different types of acquittal in Italian law ("for not having committed the act", "because the act did not take place", etc.). These are not degrees of innocence; they are descriptions of different ways in which one can be innocent.

 

[The Big Dog]

The really rare thing was that the Supreme Court overruled a conviction without sending it back down for further fact-finding. I am not sure that there's ever been a lower court acquittal reversed by Cassazione without sending back down.... but this case is rare in that it is a complete acquittal.

In essence, it is a reinstatement of the Hellmann verdict of 2011, although I would not bet my shirt on that precisely.

Huh, interesting. thanks for explaining it.

 

[carbonjam72]

Satan Boy and Orgy Dude

Cart wheel girl got off, did she?

extradition would have been messy.

Can Anyone spare a 25k foot view of why the top court in Italy did what they did?

I'm curious if you believe the cartwheel ever really was done?

Amanda knox said and wrote she did a split, and only at the suggestion of a leering older cop.

One officer said that besides a split, she also did a cart wheel. Another added a back handspring. Why must the cops be assumed to be telling the truth?

Just wondering who you believe, and why? Or what you're trying to accomplish with the phrase "cartwheel girl"?

You have a madman playing prosecutor, spinning his fraudulent satanic fantasies in every direction, That doesn't bother you?

You don't call Mignini, 'Satan Boy', or 'Orgy dude', whereas he arguably earned those names.

 

[komponisto]

The really rare thing was that the Supreme Court overruled a conviction without sending it back down for further fact-finding. I am not sure that there's ever been a lower court acquittal reversed by Cassazione without sending back down....

Acquittal, no, since they don't have the power to convict on their own (contrary to the hopes of guilters in 2013). They do have the power to acquit on their own, as they did here, but as you say, use of this power is rare. (I believe this is also what happened in Bongiorno's other famous win, the Andreotti case, but katy_did will probably know better than I.)

 

[carbonjam72]

We will know for sure when the motivations report comes out. In the meantime most news outlets describe it as a finding of innocent, like the Hellmann decision.

This is why Mignini has to go to jail. Justice must be seen to be done, and Mignini has to be recognized as having criminally ensnared two people he knew to be innocent. To restore Amanda and Raf to their full status as citizens, Mignini must be recognized as a convicted criminal.

 

[The Big Dog]

I'm curious if you believe the cartwheel ever really was done?

Amanda knox said and wrote she did a split, and only at the suggestion of a leering older cop.

One officer said that besides a split, she also did a cart wheel. Another added a back handspring. Why must the cops be assumed to be telling the truth?

Just wondering who you believe, and why? Or what you're trying to accomplish with the phrase "cartwheel girl"?

You have a madman playing prosecutor, spinning his fraudulent satanic fantasies in every direction, That doesn't bother you?

You don't call Mignini, 'Satan Boy', or 'Orgy dude', whereas he arguably earned those names.

Yes, I have a very dim memory of having seen that on video. Hell for all I know it was a fictionalized movie on the tv, or the like., or a dramatization on the news*I do recall that it seemed to have taken a prominent role in the proceedings, I have and had no idea that there was a dispute that it had or had not taken place.

I have no idea at all who mignini is.

*like a 20/20 type show?

 

[Bill Williams]

Japan times:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/03/28/world/crime-legal-world/knoxs-2007-murder-case-is-overturned/#.VR32d_nF_As

In a rare decision, the supreme Court of Cassation overturned last year’s convictions by a Florence appeals court and declined to order another trial. The judges declared that the two did not commit the crime, a stronger exoneration than merely finding that there was not enough evidence to convict.

Irish News:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/murdered-meredith-my-friend-knox-31101299.html

The judges declared that Ms Knox and her then Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 31, did not commit the crime in 2007 - a stronger exoneration than merely finding that there was not enough evidence to convict.

Canadian Broadcast Corporation:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amanda-knox-thankful-for-justice-after-murder-conviction-overturned-in-italy-1.3013114

The supreme Court of Cassation panel deliberated for 10 hours before declaring that the two did not commit the crime, a stronger exoneration than merely finding insufficient evidence to convict.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes, I have a very dim memory of having seen that on video. Hell for all I know it was a fictionalized movie on the tv, or the like. I do recall that it seemed to have taken a prominent role in the proceedings, I have and had no idea that there was a dispute it had taken place.

I have no idea at all who mignini is at all.

Mignini is the crazy prosecutor who invented the ritualistic-theory of the crime, a ritual associated with Hallowe'en. At the 2009 trial this morphed into a "sex-game gone wrong" theory.

 

[The Big Dog]

Mignini is the crazy prosecutor who invented the ritualistic-theory of the crime, a ritual associated with Hallowe'en. At the 2009 trial this morphed into a "sex-game gone wrong" theory.

Ah, thanks again.

In all seriousness, was there no video of the infamous cartwheel?

 

[lonepinealex]

Japan times:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/03/28/world/crime-legal-world/knoxs-2007-murder-case-is-overturned/#.VR32d_nF_As



Irish News:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/murdered-meredith-my-friend-knox-31101299.html



Canadian Broadcast Corporation:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amanda-knox-thankful-for-justice-after-murder-conviction-overturned-in-italy-1.3013114

Heh, well those have obviously all just copied and pasted from one original source (likely to be AP or Reuters), so the question is - did the original article get it right?

 

[lonepinealex]

Ah, thanks again.

In all seriousness, was there no video of the infamous cartwheel?

No, it was hearsay. Amanda's story is that she had been kept at the police station for hours and was fatigued, so she did some yoga stretches to relieve the stiffness. IIRC some copper asked her if she could do the splits or similar so she demonstrated. All pretty innocuous, unless said copper thinks she's guilty, in which case circular reasoning turns some limber stretching into a callous post-homicidal victory dance. Or something.

 

[Bill Williams]

The cartoon makes a comeback!

The infamous cartoon that Mignini and Comodi commissioned for the 2009 trial has made a comeback. In fairness, the two prosecutors were cleared of charges of misappropriation of funds for its creation.

But the Italian news service Panorama is resurrecting the whole issue:

http://www.panorama.it/news/cronaca/omicidio-meredithprocura-film/

Now, aside from the fact that it is difficult to understand what assumptions is based this dynamic, as in the scene of the crime the only traces were those left dall'ivoriano then sentenced to 16 years in prison, at this point you have to make other considerations. That video was never placed in the file of the prosecution and therefore was never made available to defense lawyers.​

Yet another piece of "evidence" not made available to the defence. Sheesh.

Then there is this: at first Mignini et al. tried to have Sollecito and Knox pay the bill. Now with the exonerations, the people of Italy (you reading this article) are paying.

Sorry, dear Legal murderers, we are not there we can give, but we present the bill. In fact, the cost of the movie was notified in jail to Amanda and Raffaele it was their turn to pay court costs. An account not just: 182 784 EUR. That's right, centottantaduemilasettecentoottantaquattro euro, which in the end you have paid even you who are reading this article. A sum frightening that blew up on the chair prosecutor of the Court of Auditors, which immediately opened an investigation.​

 

[Bill Williams]

Heh, well those have obviously all just copied and pasted from one original source (likely to be AP or Reuters), so the question is - did the original article get it right?

Every one of those services printed it. The information could very well be false, or a misinterpretation, so who really knows.

Given the track record of the media with this case, perhaps it is better to wait until the motivations report.

However, let me ask you a question: how much money do you have in your pocket, right now? Put it in an envelope, and if these news reports turn out to be true, I will give you my address....

 

[The Big Dog]

No, it was hearsay. Amanda's story is that she had been kept at the police station for hours and was fatigued, so she did some yoga stretches to relieve the stiffness. IIRC some copper asked her if she could do the splits or similar so she demonstrated. All pretty innocuous, unless said copper thinks she's guilty, in which case circular reasoning turns some limber stretching into a callous post-homicidal victory dance. Or something.

Interesting. I honestly have a memory of seeing it on video, and upon reflection now believe that it was a reconstruction/dramatization on a news program like 20/20.

I do appreciate you folks explaining it to a neophyte!

 

[Bill Williams]

Ah, thanks again.

In all seriousness, was there no video of the infamous cartwheel?

None. What's worse was there was no video of the suspect's interrogations - not Knox's, not Sollecitos, not Lumumba's, not Rudy Guedes - despite the Italian law which says that all interrogations of suspects must be recorded.

Also that they have lawyers, which they were deprived of. Oh - excuse me, the interrogators said they waived their right to the lawyers, which can be clearly seen on the video of the interrogation.....

...... oh wait, there was no video of them. Sorry.

 

[Bill Williams]

Interesting. I honestly have a memory of seeing it on video, and upon reflection now believe that it was a reconstruction/dramatization on a news program like 20/20.

I do appreciate you folks explaining it to a neophyte!

This case has been plagued by on-line bullying of the wrongfully accused. I saw a YouTube video (cartoon) done by an enterprising bullier, who showed Amanda cartwheeling beside Meredith's dead corpse.

 

[The Big Dog]

This case has been plagued by on-line bullying of the wrongfully accused. I saw a YouTube video (cartoon) done by an enterprising bullier, who showed Amanda cartwheeling beside Meredith's dead corpse.

I do not believe that the video I saw was malicious. It might have been a demonstration to show the cartwheel story did not make sense, for example.

it was quite a while ago when I would have seen the program.

 

[Desert Fox]

I do not believe that the video I saw was malicious. It might have been a demonstration to show the cartwheel story did not make sense, for example.

it was quite a while ago when I would have seen the program.

48 hours has done sympathetic programs

 

[Bill Williams]

Peggy Ganong has announced that PMF.ORG is closing.

For my money, she consulted a lawyer.