Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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A "site search" on google might be an alternative:

site:criminallawandjustice.co.uk "The Brutal Killing of Meredith Kercher"

If the paywall still shows up a cleanup of the browser's history/cookies and a reset of the internet router (giving one a new IP adress...) will do the trick ;)

Weird. I'd swear I checked that link to make sure it worked before I posted it. Thanks for the instructions, it's definitely worth the read.
 
Ok. Have it your way.

You keep trying to redefine what Raffaele is saying and what he should be saying. You keep trying to redefine the issues at hand.

No wonder. You refuse to even address why what GB says is important - that Nencini said it was unnecessary to establish TOD, and that this meant her client cannot mount a defence....

....if the courts can argue a piece of evidence relates to one time in the evening and another to another time.

All this when proper forensics plus Rudy's first story suggests the victim was gone by 9:30, and certainly no later than just after 10.

You keep chucking in random factoids that Raffaele is supposed to explain, when what Raffaele is saying is clear.

You may find your factoid interesting, but it has nothing to do with the appeal.

Read the appeals documents or dont read them. Your choice.



No Bill :)
I have addressed it twice. I wasn’t very subtle on either occasion. Of course ones mileage may vary but I can’t simplify it any further. No doubt the fault is mine.

BTW I will have a look for this video you have mentioned.
 
Weird. I'd swear I checked that link to make sure it worked before I posted it. Thanks for the instructions, it's definitely worth the read.

Have you read cj72's take on the RS appeal doc?
What do you make of it?

Also did you get a chance, in the interim, to check out RS's latest TV appearance - last time there was some confusion with his book. It was like a drunken game of charades :)
 
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Ominous silence

You might want to catch up on your reading before posting. I've already changed some of what I said, based on new info that I was able to find. I still don't see a translated version of RS's statement to read, but there are a couple out there now in Italian.

And yes, if the Telegraph were the only available source, especially since it was a report of a report, I would hesitate to put a lot of weight into comparing it word for word with, well anything. Again, it is a reporter telling us what another reporter reported that an unknown police source told them.

If there is anything this case has taught me, it is how completely inaccurate the current state of journalism is in the world. The level of actual fact checking these days is appalling.


So Dougm, have you located a translated version of RS's Nov 5th statement - One which shows that the Telegraph version is false and is yet another part of the huge conspiracy?

It's only been 8 years but still.
 
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Bill Williams said:
Ok. Have it your way.

You keep trying to redefine what Raffaele is saying and what he should be saying. You keep trying to redefine the issues at hand.

No wonder. You refuse to even address why what GB says is important - that Nencini said it was unnecessary to establish TOD, and that this meant her client cannot mount a defence.... ....if the courts can argue a piece of evidence relates to one time in the evening and another to another time.
All this when proper forensics plus Rudy's first story suggests the victim was gone by 9:30, and certainly no later than just after 10.

You keep chucking in random factoids that Raffaele is supposed to explain, when what Raffaele is saying is clear.

You may find your factoid interesting, but it has nothing to do with the appeal.

Read the appeals documents or dont read them. Your choice.

No Bill :)
I have addressed it twice. I wasn’t very subtle on either occasion. Of course ones mileage may vary but I can’t simplify it any further. No doubt the fault is mine.

BTW I will have a look for this video you have mentioned.

The awkwardness of sentence construction is my fault. Apologies. What GB said was important is what followed, "You refuse to even address why what GB says is important," namely, that Nencini's refusal to pin down a TOD means that, in this case, her client cannot mount a proper defense.

It's because when one shows why one item tends to exonerate her client, the prosecution/judge can come back with, "That's because the TOD is late." Or when another item tends to exonerate her client, the prosecution/judge can come back with, "That's because the TOD is early."

This appeal point belongs to both Amanda as well as Raffaele.... esp. when it can be said, forensicly speaking, that Meredtih's TOD was probably before 9:30 pm and not this revolving door of purposeful confusion.

You kept coming back to this: "Where's Raffaele's statement of where he was between 9 pm and 1 am?" You assume you are a prosecutor or judge who has made this a salient point which Raffaele is appealing against.

This specific point is not an appeal point because at the end of the day, Raffaele has always said: he was with Amanda at his apartment.

Truly, this is why you need to do more than just chuck in what you think are "gotcha" points, that aren't even related to key points which Nencini used to find for conviction. Raffaele's appeal focusses on specific items in Nencini's conviction - showing why those specific point are wrong, or even tend to exonerate him (if Nencini is saying that it should convict Knox).

If you would bother to read key documents, you would save yourself a lot of time in inventing your "gotcha" moments. You'd be able to key in on really-real points as they have worked their way through the Italian courts and make things appear less like your posts are one long exercise in begging the question.
 
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The awkwardness of sentence construction is my fault. Apologies. What GB said was important is what followed, "You refuse to even address why what GB says is important," namely, that Nencini's refusal to pin down a TOD means that, in this case, her client cannot mount a proper defense.

It's because when one shows why one item tends to exonerate her client, the prosecution/judge can come back with, "That's because the TOD is late." Or when another item tends to exonerate her client, the prosecution/judge can come back with, "That's because the TOD is early."

This appeal point belongs to both Amanda as well as Raffaele.... esp. when it can be said, forensicly speaking, that Meredtih's TOD was probably before 9:30 pm and not this revolving door of purposeful confusion.

You kept coming back to this: "Where's Raffaele's statement of where he was between 9 pm and 1 am?" You assume you are a prosecutor or judge who has made this a salient point which Raffaele is appealing against.

This specific point is not an appeal point because at the end of the day, Raffaele has always said: he was with Amanda at his apartment.
Truly, this is why you need to do more than just chuck in what you think are "gotcha" points, that aren't even related to key points which Nencini used to find for conviction. Raffaele's appeal focusses on specific items in Nencini's conviction - showing why those specific point are wrong, or even tend to exonerate him (if Nencini is saying that it should convict Knox).

If you would bother to read key documents, you would save yourself a lot of time in inventing your "gotcha" moments. You'd be able to key in on really-real points as they have worked their way through the Italian courts and make things appear less like your posts are one long exercise in begging the question.


No, Bill.

Also - No, Bill.

ps I think I'm doing OK :)
 
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Have you read cj72's take on the RS appeal doc?
What do you make of it?

Just up the page? Yeah, I noted that apparently the defense is making the point that by refusing to establish a ToD, the prosecution makes an alibi virtually impossible to achieve. That would seem obvious to me and why your arguments on this issue have little merit.

Also did you get a chance, in the interim, to check out RS's latest TV appearance - last time there was some confusion with his book. It was like a drunken game of charades :)

Nothing more than since the last time you mentioned it to me. What in particular did you find confusing?
 
Re: Highlighted part. Is there any proof that they were not?

As far as I recall their alibi's are that they were together in the flat. Sollecito's argument is that if the court says Knox wasn't with him, where is the proof he was at the cottage with her. Although there is no proof she was at the cottage either.

If you could point me in the direction of any evidence that either of them were at the cottage at the time of the murder it would be very much appreciated.




Apply to GB if all else fails – she seems convinced that such evidence exists in the case of AK.

Am I being too subtle again.
If we take carbonjam72’s google powered translation /argument as accurate GB is, by the ToD argument, highlighting for Cassation that RS is not claiming that he upholds AK testimony before Massei w.r.t. the night of Nov1st. Quite the contrary.

Do you see?
Perhaps GB is not that subtle?

If cj72 can turn up the section where RS’s appeal definitively makes it clear that RS was with AK between 21.00 and 00.10 then obviously this argument is false.

Yes, but could you point me in the direction of any evidence that either of them were at the cottage at the time of the murder?

I would particularly like to see the piece of evidence that convinced you that it was Sollecito who stabbed Meredith.
 
Bill Williams said:
This specific point is not an appeal point because at the end of the day, Raffaele has always said: he was with Amanda at his apartment.

No, Bill.

Also - No, Bill.

ps I think I'm doing OK :)

Ah, er, yes he has. And still does. As he relates in his book, at his own interrogation on the night of Nov 5/6, 2007, the cops composed for him an account which was a mash-up (his words) of the events of Oct 31/Nov 1. He says in his book that one of the things he failed to realize when he signed (under duress and threats), that he was putting his name to a document that they could use against her.

They used a mash-up, confused accounting of his interrogation against Amanda. Since then, people like you continue to take his words out of context.

Since his acquittal on Oct 3, 2011, Raffaele has not been so silent. He's written a book, and appeared on Italian TV. He's had a news conference.

You claim that he's cut Amanda loose in those things. What you don't do is point to anything, you just claim it. You just assert it, despite Raffaele himself putting himself out there.

At the end of the day the core of Raffaele's story is that between the final discovery of the fact they could have a night together - when Popovic came by and saw Amanda at about 8:40 pm - they spent the rest of the night together until Amanda left for the cottage the next morning circa 10:30 am.

If you find Raffaele saying something different, please post it. My bet it is a guilter-lobby factoid.
 
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Just up the page? Yeah, I noted that apparently the defense is making the point that by refusing to establish a ToD, the prosecution makes an alibi virtually impossible to achieve. That would seem obvious to me and why your arguments on this issue have little merit.



Nothing more than since the last time you mentioned it to me. What in particular did you find confusing?

Nothing more - you mean you didn't watch it :)

Oh, I wasn't confused ;). I was referring to your referencing 'the book' when we were discussing 'the video'.

Still it's good that Bill has a challenge when it comes to the most compelling pro innocence arguments. Whilst the race has fewer numbers the competition is more intense.
 
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Yes, but could you point me in the direction of any evidence that either of them were at the cottage at the time of the murder?

I would particularly like to see the piece of evidence that convinced you that it was Sollecito who stabbed Meredith.

'particularly like' - OK I have a solution for this.

Are you really interested?
 
Yes, but could you point me in the direction of any evidence that either of them were at the cottage at the time of the murder?

I would particularly like to see the piece of evidence that convinced you that it was Sollecito who stabbed Meredith.

'particularly like' - OK I have a solution for this.

Are you really interested?

Sorry, my mistake. I thought it was a simple request for you to show me the piece of evidence that convinced you that Sollecito performed the stabbing.

I don't know what your "solution" is, and no, I am not really interested.
 
Sorry, my mistake. I thought it was a simple request for you to show me the piece of evidence that convinced you that Sollecito performed the stabbing.

I don't know what your "solution" is, and no, I am not really interested.

OK we are done, it appears.

If that is the case, why did you ask ?
 
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OK we are done, it appears.

If that is the case, why did you ask ?

I think the problem is that you appear to have never presented anything concrete. . . .Not even anything compelling such as in the case of Scott Peterson. I do not like circumstantial cases but you do not even have that.
 
Apply to GB if all else fails – she seems convinced that such evidence exists in the case of AK.

Am I being too subtle again.
If we take carbonjam72’s google powered translation /argument as accurate GB is, by the ToD argument, highlighting for Cassation that RS is not claiming that he upholds AK testimony before Massei w.r.t. the night of Nov1st. Quite the contrary.

Do you see?
Perhaps GB is not that subtle?

If cj72 can turn up the section where RS’s appeal definitively makes it clear that RS was with AK between 21.00 and 00.10 then obviously this argument is false.

The question of alibis is not, nor has it ever been, a substantive issue in these cases at trial. Your egregious failure to understand this simplest of points is demonstrated by you, almost daily.

The substantive issue at trial is that the prosecution contends, (and Massei and Nencini (but not Hellmann) accepted), that both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito left his apartment and killed Ms Kercher with Guede, citing different evidence, the debate about which you carefully avoid, presumably because you cannot find an argument in support of any of it.

Nowhere in the trial record will you find any reference to any claim by the prosecution that Mr Sollecito refused to alibi Ms Knox. What you will find, on the contrary, is an acceptance by each trial court that both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito provide alibis for each other.

Furthermore, you state that Mr Sollecito killed Ms Kercher - stabbed her to death, as part of a 3 on 1 attack. You have failed to produce any evidence at all in support of this contention, despite having been challenged to do so and the court doesn't even support you.

You have been incapable of looking at the interrogations of the 5th and 6th (from which most, if not all your comments originate) for what they are - illegal, lawyerless violations of the defendants' human rights, with illegally obtained, compelled statements, ruled inadmissible by the Supreme Court, used illegally, by Nencini in defiance of his superior court, to convict Ms Knox, as follows:

“It appears suitable to also point out how the statements made by the girl to the Police and then to the Public Minister during the night of November 6, 2007, are of undeniable interest also in the context of the reconstructive evidentiary framework specifically pertaining to the murder.” (page 101)

and:

“And on the other hand, as it has already been said, it is Amanda Marie Knox herself who places herself, even if together with Lumumba and not with Sollecito, at Piazza Grimana on the night of November 1, 2007, after 21 pm.” (page 130)

and:

"One can hence assert not just that the statements given to the Police at 1.45 am and to the Public Minister at 5.45 am of November 6, 2007, by Amanda Marie Knox constitute a crime of calumny against Patrick Lumumba, but also that said calumny was fabricated with the specific aim of deflecting the suspicions of the Police from the defendants.” (page 142).

To quote from Luca Chelli's translation:

All of these statements make use of the content of statements whose use has been declared inadmissible by the Supreme Court already in April 2008, hence the Florence Court openly admits using against Knox documentary evidence the Supreme Court had ruled being totally inadmissible for use against its author (1.45 am statement) or against anybody (5.45 am statement).
Let's see, shall we, whether you have the integrity to consider and confront the wilful lawbreaking of Nencini and the wit and intelligence to wonder what, in the event these verdicts are confirmed, the ECHR will make of Nencini's illegality. This is on a par with the clearest evidence, I suspect the European Court will have seen in any case brought before them, at least for the last ten years, of a violation of Article 6.
 
Kauffer:
Unfortunately, way to many cases work that the defendant has to prove innocence instead of the prosecution proving guilt. Sometimes I will watch a TV show on a legal case and you are just about ready to pull out your hair in listening to it. I grant you, it should not work that way however.
 
Kauffer:
Unfortunately, way to many cases work that the defendant has to prove innocence instead of the prosecution proving guilt. Sometimes I will watch a TV show on a legal case and you are just about ready to pull out your hair in listening to it. I grant you, it should not work that way however.

How many cases, I wonder, bear witness to a situation in which a country's highest court rules evidence inadmissible and a lower court ignores the highest court on the issue.

Additionally, of course, we must wonder how the highest court in question can possibly review the conclusions of the lower court and confirm the integrity of its verdict arrived at in violation of the law - flouting the decision that it - the highest court - had previously made!
 
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How many cases, I wonder, bear witness to a situation in which a country's highest court rules evidence inadmissible and a lower court ignores the highest court on the issue.

Additionally, of course, we must wonder how the highest court in question can possibly review the conclusions of the lower court and confirm the integrity of its verdict arrived at in violation of the law - flouting the decision that it - the highest court - had previously made!

There is plenty that is extremely oddball about this case, not disagreeing with that. I was arguing more with what you wrote in your first four paragraphs where you appear to argue that the prosecution never proved their case. I agree but juries are stupid.
 
OK we are done, it appears.

If that is the case, why did you ask ?
platonov

You are a long term poster, but unlike Machiavelli, you do not respond to exact queries.
I find it difficult to believe you are being other than amused by the ease with which you can elicit serious responses.
You are the enigmatic one, and accorded attention because you are one of a few lone guilt arguing survivors on this forum, but you are not scientifically robust.

If few people continue to argue a postion on ISF, it may be possible to prove their position is factually wrong. This may become a new paradigm, so you must imagine that the desertion of this forum by guilters in this long case means the defendants are factually innocent.
If they are declared legally guilty soon, don't expect the thread to die.
 
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