Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Strawman. (...)

Strawman? But it was your argument!

You are trying to shift the issue away from the prosecution's obligation to full disclosure, sometimes called discovery. (...)

Ahem.. don't you remember what your argument was?

The post I answered was this one, where you wrote:

Machiavelli is now expanding the "behind the scenes" explanations for things, in the run up to the March 25 Cassazione rulings. He's letting us in-on certain things which were otherwise unknown, to me at least.

You are not talking about prosecutions obligations of disclosure. It seems you are talking about Machiavelli's (mine) disclosures on forums, aren't you?
Or more precisely, you are asking yourself why you are learning some information only now:

For instance, instead of just saying, "Stefanoni was never asked to supply the EDFs," he's now saying that she tried to release them but the defence refused her conditions.

I may not have that exactly right, Machiavelli, so I apologize - it's not really the point I am trying to make.

Why is it that a "more full detail" of these kinds of things is coming out now!

It seems to me what you were talking about here is the timings of when you happen to learn information.
You are questioning why someone let you know only now, why certain things were "otherwise unknown", why they didn't tell you about them before.

Then, as to maintain that those documents are "admissions" that were kept hidden before, you project on me an intent comparing me to Richard Nixon (a politician and known liar - thanks!):

I am old enough to remember Watergate. I remember later-on reading about John Dean's use of the term, "modified limited hangout." It was an attempt by the Nixon criminals to make certain admissions, by controling the release of potentially damaging material, all to mitigate some future accountability.

Why is Machiavelli engaging in a "modified limited hangout" at this time?

So you were not at all talking about prosecutions' or Stefanoni's alleged disclosure obligations towards the defence.

No, you were talking about why some official trial papers - namely Stefanoni's response - were kept hidden from your knowledge, and from the public.
You were talking about the disclosure of documents (Stefanoni's letter) which was already in the hands of the defence, and possibly in the hands of Prof. Halkides, the content of which - Stefanoni stating she agrees to Pascali's request - was never disclosed to the public.

It's the disclosure of official trial documents from the parties to the public, what you were talking about in your post. Not disclosure of documents from the prosecution to the defence.

You asked yourself, why this letter response by Stefanoni was never mentioned, never "admitted" and made public, before now.

And this was your argument!
It was you who chose and set the topic, it was entirely and originally the content of your post.
 
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Witnesses are questioned by both sides just as in the States. And just as in the States some like or don't like the questions posed or answers given.

I wanted to thank you for the playing around with color of the door photo. It does appear open to me with that edit (but I think the original is still lacking in detail to be certain). Are you technically artistic (is that the correct term) to be able to play with the color as if the brown door is closed behind the gate? If not no worries. I just wondered what that might look like (if it could be done).

I think it is extremely clear that the door is open. . . .I don't think there is any question on that fact. Looking at the original, in retrospect I think it is clear even in that picture even if less obvious.

Most picture viewing software allows one to alter the colors. Gamma correction is one of the most common. I am not using any kind of artistic skill in manipulating the image. I personally use ifranview.

Not sure exactly what you are looking for but I can however further gamma correct. Picture starts to look wierd but contrasts become even more apparent. you can see part of the brown door in it.

Perugia_%20front_door-gamma_altered-2.jpg
 
The US courts, I seriously doubt. Whatever, what Hellmann says will matter less than less than zero.

Mach, I respectfully disagree. In any US court proceeding, as well as in the US state dept, the Hellman acquittal will be viewed as final. The Nencini re-conviction offered almost no new evidence, and nothing incriminating to Amanda and Raf.

To do otherwise, would be a violation of the US constitutional prohibition against double jeopardy, and this consideration is incorporated into the US-Italy extradition as well as all treaties. Congress, nor the president can abrogate the protections afforded in the US constitution, unless by formal constitutional amendment process, not a garden variety law or executive order.

If Raf were in the US, he would probably be protected from extradition as well.

But let's not put the cart before the horse. Cassation still gets to vote, and tell us what comes next. Let's hope they listen to national & international opinion, and recognize innocence once again.
 
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The US courts, I seriously doubt. Whatever, what Hellmann says will matter less than less than zero.

Correction: I should have said just the US, because the universe of people who will in some way judge Italy is not limited to the courts.
 
The US courts, I seriously doubt. Whatever, what Hellmann says will matter less than less than zero.
Completely 100% wrong in either location. The Echtr is obviously not restricted in what they look at, and the US state department closed the file with Hellmann. If they are forced to reopen it that is where they will start, by asking what have your dithering clowns been up to now.
 
Mach, I respectfully disagree. In any US court proceeding, as well as in the state dept, the Hellman acquittal will be viewed as final. The Nencini re-conviction offered almost no new evidence, and nothing incriminating to Amanda and Raf. (...)

The Hellmann verdict doesn't exist. It would be interesting to see another jurisdiction that attributes a "final" legal value to something that legally doesn't exist, that is not legitimate under any law or authority and it is not recognized by any jurisdiction. The verdict would be attributed to the name of what sovreign power? In the name of whom would the verdict stand?
The Hellmann verdict has the same legal value of a verdict issued by a council made of my cousins presieded over by my grandmother.

You are talking about a document that does not have a legal status in any system or under any authority, jurisprudence or law. The US would have to "invent" a source of legitimization (a law, a legal authority) that currently doesnt exist.
 
You are talking about a document that does not have a legal status in any system or under any authority, jurisprudence or law. The US would have to "invent" a source of legitimization (a law, a legal authority) that currently doesnt exist.

If by "invent" you mean "read", then yes.
 
The Hellmann verdict doesn't exist. It would be interesting to see another jurisdiction that attributes a "final" legal value to something that legally doesn't exist, that is not legitimate under any law or authority and it is not recognized by any jurisdiction. The verdict would be attributed to the name of what sovreign power? In the name of whom would the verdict stand?
The Hellmann verdict has the same legal value of a verdict issued by a council made of my cousins presieded over by my grandmother.

You are talking about a document that does not have a legal status in any system or under any authority, jurisprudence or law. The US would have to "invent" a source of legitimization (a law, a legal authority) that currently doesnt exist.

Quoted from Numbers on another forum but pretty clear legally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquittal

With one exception, in the United States an acquittal cannot be appealed by the prosecution because of constitutional prohibitions against double jeopardy. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled:

If the judgment is upon an acquittal, the defendant, indeed, will not seek to have it reversed, and the government cannot. U.S. v. Sanges, 144 U.S. 310 (1892). Ball v. U.S., 163 U.S. 662, 671 (1896)

A verdict of acquittal, although not followed by any judgment, is a bar to a subsequent prosecution for the same offense. Ball, supra, at 672.

Society's awareness of the heavy personal strain which a criminal trial represents for the individual defendant is manifested in the willingness to limit the Government to a single criminal proceeding to vindicate its very vital interest in enforcement of criminal laws. United States v. Jorn, 400 U.S. 470, 479 (1971)

Whether the trial is to a jury or, as here, to the bench, subjecting the defendant to postacquittal factfinding proceedings going to guilt or innocence violates the Double Jeopardy Clause. Smalis v. Pennsylvania, 476 U.S. 140 (1986)

It was decided in Fong Foo v. United States, 369 U.S. 141 (1962) that a judgment of acquittal by a jury cannot be appealed by the prosecution. In United States v. Jenkins, 420 U.S. 358 (1975), this was held applicable to bench trials. In Arizona v. Rumsey, 467 U.S. 203 (1984), it was ruled that in a bench trial, when a judge was holding a separate hearing after the jury trial, to decide if the defendant should be sentenced to death or life imprisonment, the judge decided that the circumstances of the case did not permit death to be imposed. On appeal the judge's ruling was found to be erroneous. However, even though the decision to impose life instead of death was based on an erroneous interpretation of the law by the judge, the finding of life imprisonment in the original case constituted an acquittal of the death penalty and thus death could not be imposed upon a subsequent trial. Even though the acquittal of the death penalty was erroneous in that case, the acquittal must stand.

The only exception to an acquittal being final is if the defendant was never in actual jeopardy at all at trial. If a defendant bribes a judge and obtains acquittal as a result of a bench trial, the acquittal is not valid because the defendant was never in jeopardy in the first place. Harry Aleman v. Judges of the Criminal Division, Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois, et al., 138 F.3d 302 (1998).


Even people who think Amanda is guilty see this as a potential barrier and she will likely have excellent lawyers in any case.
 
[qimg]http://www.kitsune.addr.com/images/Perugia_%20front_door-gamma_altered-2.jpg[/qimg]


Excellent work.

Now we wait for Machiavelli to claim that there is a letter informing the defense and the courts why the cottage was opened on November 13.


ETA: what you should probably do is email this to Christopher Dickey and ask if he can provide the original raw image file.
 
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uh, door number 3?

If the ECHR determines that Knox's civil rights were violated in interrogation and trial for calunia, I guess Lumumba and his attorney will amicably settle the attorney's bill. I'd like to be a fly on the wall listening to their conversation. :rolleyes: "YOU TOLD ME TO SUE THE GIRL AND DENY THE POLiCE BEAT ME!"

Will Prosecutor Mignini have to surrender his notary commission? :D

If the ISC upholds convictions of Knox and Sollecito for murder and the case goes to the ECHR and ECHR finds the defendants civil rights were eggregiously violated in the murder trials and Italy makes amends, attorney Maresca has a lot $$$ to lose, right? :D. He will have to find another ambulance to chase.
 
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Re Stefanoni academic record; as far as I can see she has 2 original research papers one from 1998 on what appears to be taxonomic genetics of worms, and one from 2004 on pharmaco-genetics, neither first author. By comparison Halides CJ seems to have 6 publications, 3 first author over the same time period (other publications before and after comparable period excluded). She has no original research published in forensic genetics. Two papers over a six year period (at the best) is appallingly poor if employed as a researcher. This makes me wonder if she was in fact employed as a teaching assistant professor (I think teachers are all professors in Italy?).

ETA on the other hand Andrew wakefield published 36 research papers over the same period many first author in addition to multiple reviews; too many in my opinion for a young researcher who had not even got a PhD or a Bsc. So too many may be worse than too few.

2 group papers - that's all Dr. Stefanoni published in 6 years? If, as Planigale wonders, Stefanoni was employed as a teaching assistant professor, it appears the institute has no "publish or perish" standard.
 
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Extradition says any future request is unlikely based on DJ treaty provisions

The Hellmann verdict doesn't exist. It would be interesting to see another jurisdiction that attributes a "final" legal value to something that legally doesn't exist, that is not legitimate under any law or authority and it is not recognized by any jurisdiction. The verdict would be attributed to the name of what sovreign power? In the name of whom would the verdict stand?
The Hellmann verdict has the same legal value of a verdict issued by a council made of my cousins presieded over by my grandmother.

You are talking about a document that does not have a legal status in any system or under any authority, jurisprudence or law. The US would have to "invent" a source of legitimization (a law, a legal authority) that currently doesnt exist.

Please see the article below from a recognized expert in extradition law, discussing the likelihood of of success of any future extradition request:

http://blog.oup.com/2014/04/is-amanda-knox-extraditable-from-the-united-states-to-italy/

Here's a snippet, johnny;

BY CHERIF BASSIOUNI APRIL 4TH 2014
The Amanda Knox case is complex in view of Italy’s complicated procedure in matters involving serious crimes. These crimes are tried before a special court called the Court of Assizes. These courts have two professional judges and six lay judges, much like a jury in Anglo-American cases. But, in Italy, the lay judges sit alongside the ordinary judges and decide on questions of law and fact. In the Italian system, a conviction or an acquittal can be appealed to the Court of Appeals, which can either examine the merits of the case and hold a new hearing on the facts or decide on the proper application of law, or both. It can also remand a case to the trial court for a new trial. Such appeals are trials de novo, but the Appeals Court of Assizes seldom hears witnesses again, though it can. Usually, it decides on the record both questions of facts and law. Any case can be appealed to the Court of Cassation. If any court certifies there is a constitutional question at issue, that court can refer the case to the Constitutional Court. This complex procedure is designed to benefit the rights of the accused.

The Facts and the Procedural History of the Case

Amanda Knox, a US citizen, was a student at the University of Perugia in November 2007 when she was arrested for the murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher. The two women were studying in Perugia, Italy. Meredith Kercher was found dead in the apartment she shared with Knox with her throat slit and with evidence of a sexual assault. Knox, her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, and Rudy Guede from the Ivory Coast, an acquaintance of the couple, were all charged with murder and sexual violence.

2009 – The Perugia Trial Court of Assizes convicted Amanda Knox for murder and slander.

All three pled innocent but were convicted by the Assizes Trial Court in December of 2009 for murder and sexual violence. Amanda Knox was also convicted for slander, having accused Mr. Patrick Lumumba (the owner of the bar in which she occasionally worked) as the murderer. Amanda Knox was sentenced to 26 years in jail, Raffaele Sollecito to 25 years, and Rudy Guede (who had opted for the accelerate procedure) to 30 years (a conviction now affirmed by the Italian Court of Cassation, but with a reduction of the sentence to 16 years).

The convictions of Knox and Sollecito were due to the court not being convinced of Knox’s story that she and Sollecito were not in the apartment the night of the murder but were instead at Sollecito’s apartment. Witnesses testified that they had seen Knox and Sollecito near the apartment where Meredith Kercher’s body was found at around 23.00 hours; and the main scientific exhibits—specifically, Exhibit 36, a 6.5 inch knife found in Sollecito’s apartment with Knox’s DNA on the handle and Meredith Kercher’s DNA on the blade (low quantity of DNA)—were compatible with the wounds according to court experts, and Exhibit 165, a clasp, was found on the murder scene with Meredith Kercher’s DNA and Sollecito’s DNA.



2011 – Amanda Knox appealed to the Appeals Court of Assizes of Perugia, which acquitted her of murder and affirmed her conviction for slander.

In October 2011, the Appeals Court of Assizes of Perugia acquitted both Knox and Sollecito after questions were raised by the defense regarding the protocol followed by the Italian police while gathering the forensic evidence that was used to convict them in 2009. The court’s judgment was also based on new scientific examinations that were previously requested by the defense during the first trial but were not authorized by the trial court. This evidence, according to the defense, would have disproved the presence of Knox and Sollecito at the crime scene. The appeals court concluded that the evidence that proved persuasive to the Perugia Trial Court of Assizes was obtained in a contaminated environment. More specifically, the appeals court concluded that (1) certain footprints initially attributed to Sollecito were also compatible with the size of Rudy Guede’s feet and (2) subsequent analysis on the 6.5 inch kitchen knife supposedly used to slit Meredith Kercher’s throat showed that the kitchen knife did not contain Kercher’s DNA and that the kitchen knife could not have been the murder weapon.
2013 – The Prosecution appealed that decision to the Court of Cassation (Supreme Court), which remanded the case to the Appeals Court of Assizes of Florence.

Following the acquittal by the first appeals court in 2011, Knox left Italy and returned to the United States. In March 2013, the Prosecution in the Knox and Sollecito cases appealed to the Court of Cassation, Italy’s Supreme Court, which remanded the case to the Appeals Court of Assizes in Florence for reconsideration on the basis that there were discrepancies in testimony, inconsistencies, omissions, and contradictions in the ruling of the Appeals Court of Assizes of Perugia in 2011. The Court of Cassation upheld each of the grounds raised by the Perugia Chief Prosecutor. The Court of Cassation concluded that the Assizes Court of Appeals of Perugia, which reversed the murder conviction for Amanda Knox in 2011, had weighed the evidence in an inconsistent and piecemeal fashion.

2014 – The Appeals Court of Assizes of Florence overturned the acquittal by the Court of Appeals of Perugia for murder and affirmed the previous conviction of the trial court for murder and slander.

The case was then assigned to the Appeals Court of Assizes of Florence, which, on 30 January 2014, overturned the acquittals of the Perugia Assizes Court of Appeal based on the Court of Cassation’s previous judgment. This appeals court convicted Knox in absentia and sentenced her to 28 years and six months of imprisonment and sentenced Sollecito to 25 years of imprisonment. The Presiding Judge of the Florence Court has 90 days as of January 30, 2014 to write his judgment (with reasons) on the ruling. Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito have stated that as soon as the judgment is filed, they will appeal it to the Court of Cassation. The judgment is not final until the Court of Cassation rules on the eventual appeal of Knox and Sollecito.

Extradition from the United States to Italy

Italy is one of the few countries with this complex procedure, which it does not consider to be in violation of the constitutional prohibition of ne bis in idem (double jeopardy) reflected in article 649 of the Italian Code of Criminal procedure. The prohibition of ne bis in idem is included in the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, but, so far, the European Court for Human Rights (ECHR) has not interpreted Italian law as violating the European Convention. Thus, the procedure described above has not been found to be in violation of ne bis in idem under the ECHR.

The 1983 U.S.–Italy Extradition Treaty states in article VI that extradition is not available in cases where the requested person has been acquitted or convicted of the “same acts” (in the English text) and the “same facts” (in the Italian text). Treaty interpretation needs to ascertain the intentions of the parties by relying on the plain language and meaning of the words. Italy’s law prohibiting ne bis in idem specifically uses the words stessi fatti, which are the same words used in the Italian version of article VI, meaning “same facts.” Because fatti, or “facts,” may include multiple acts, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals applied the test of “same conduct” in Sindona v. Grant, citing international extradition in US law and practice, based on this writer’s analysis.

Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be—“same act,” “same facts,” or the broader “same conduct”—Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct. Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times. In light of the jurisprudence of the various circuits on this issue, it is unlikely that extradition would be granted.
The US Supreme Court can also make a constitutional determination under the Fifth Amendment of the applicability of double jeopardy to extradition cases, particularly with respect to a requesting state’s right to keep on reviewing its request for the same acts or facts in the hope of obtaining a conviction. But, no such interpretation was given to the Fifth Amendment in any extradition case to date. Surprising as it may be, neither the Supreme Court nor any Circuit Court has yet held that the Fifth Amendment’s “double jeopardy” provision applies to extradition. So far, double jeopardy defenses have been dealt with as they arise under the applicable treaty.
Conclusion: Amanda Knox’s extradition from the United States to Italy under existing jurisprudence is not likely.
 
Strawman? But it was your argument!



And this was your argument!
It was you who chose and set the topic, it was entirely and originally the content of your post.

Machiavelli. My question was about the prosecution's obligation on disclosure. You immediately turned it around as if someone else had this obligation....

Machiavelli said:
You should ask why neither prof. Halkides nor the Knox PR machine never released the papers of Stefanoni's exchange with Judge Micheli; why they never made the slightest mention of the existence of an offer to view electronic files on the part of Stefanoni. Why did they kept total silence and pulled a curtain of complete darkness about this.
It's a good question.​

After months of saying that Stefanoni had, in your factoid, released the EDFs, and/or had satisfied legal requirements - you then shifted gears in a manner called "a limited hangout". You said she did comply, except that she set conditions that the defence did not wish to met - ergo, says you, she complied but it was the defence's fault for not meeting her conditions.

The point is, even you admit that Stefanoni would only release certain items ON THE CONDITIONS she set. These conditions are unknown to the Italian constitution, and irrelevant to the prosecution's obligation for full disclosure, so that people charged with crimes have an opportunity to at least see the evidence against them.

All other typing you did about me, Bruce Fischer, Chris Halkides is irrelevant to this. I was asking YOU a question, and you simply refused to answer, instead suggesting that I ask someone else some other question.

I will then take this as a refusal to answer on your part. You simply refuse to address the issue of Stefanoni's obligation (as an agent of the prosecution) to fully disclose. The word "fully" does not mean she gets to set conditions or that someone else should release it for her.

Thank you for your time. You could have saved a lot of back and forth by saying, "Stefanoni had no obligation to release info critical to the defence, unless the defence met her conditions." That would have shortened this back and forth immensely.
 
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The US courts, I seriously doubt. Whatever, what Hellmann says will matter less than less than zero.

Since the Hellmann court has a motivation report that explains the reasoning for the calunnia conviction of Amanda Knox, and she has lodged a complaint against Italy violating her Convention rights regarding that conviction, we can be confident that at least part of the Hellmann court's records will be reviewed by ECHR.

I can state from my own reading of ECHR judgments that quashed verdicts, whether of acquittal or conviction, do not disappear from the universe of legal documents for the ECHR. If fact, the ECHR has viewed with considerable suspicion the practice of convicting someone on the same evidence that previously had acquitted that individual. In fact, that kind of reversal, especially if witnesses had been called in the acquittal court but not the convicting court, has led ECHR to find that the conviction is a violation of Convention Article 6. The unconventional logic, failure to address the DNA evidence and independent experts' report, and arbitrary conclusions of the Nencini motivation report will also provide ECHR with reasons to find a violation of Article 6.
 
Since the Hellmann court has a motivation report that explains the reasoning for the calunnia conviction of Amanda Knox, and she has lodged a complaint against Italy violating her Convention rights regarding that conviction, we can be confident that at least part of the Hellmann court's records will be reviewed by ECHR.

I can state from my own reading of ECHR judgments that quashed verdicts, whether of acquittal or conviction, do not disappear from the universe of legal documents for the ECHR. If fact, the ECHR has viewed with considerable suspicion the practice of convicting someone on the same evidence that previously had acquitted that individual. In fact, that kind of reversal, especially if witnesses had been called in the acquittal court but not the convicting court, has led ECHR to find that the conviction is a violation of Convention Article 6. The unconventional logic, failure to address the DNA evidence and independent experts' report, and arbitrary conclusions of the Nencini motivation report will also provide ECHR with reasons to find a violation of Article 6.


Thank you for that. It seems Machiavelli is reluctant to address the issue of whether or not evidence presented at the Hellmann trial stands, or not.
 
I was watching Cold Justice "Mother Daughter Tragedy" and there is a case where they tested a number of samples where they got multiple male sources. They basically decide that, even though they think they know who the suspect is, that no DA would file charges.
 
Why does Steffi say the machine produced the e-gram in her letter wanting DNA discovery of the log files denied because "it's not needed and never happened before"?
 
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I have already answered to you talking about this topic:
in this post for example.
Maybe I was not clear about the fact Stefanoni has top publications in genetic forensic fields, such as this (ranked #1 most successful article in 2011):

http://top25.sciencedirect.com/subject/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/3/journal/forensic-science-international-genetics-supplement-series/18751768/archive/41

Stefanoni was a researcher in genetics before working at the State Police, this was also reported by the news at the time:

http://www.repubblica.it/2008/10/sezioni/cronaca/perugia-uccisa8/perugia-uccisa8/perugia-uccisa8.html



translation:



Here you have a short article describing Patrizia Stefanoni:



translation:



The newspaper talks about the extreme difficulty for worthy people to find good jobs in Southern Italy, especially in Naples (this is a local paper from Naples, points out Patrizia Stefanoni was born in Bagnoli, a neighborhood in Naples).

In fact something of what Planigale points out is correct: while it is not true that Stefanoni only wrote two publications (because she also published articles in Italian) in fact Stefanoni did some research, as long as she finished her doctorate, but then for some years she was paid mainly for working as an assistant professor.
Notice that this extensive, Italian use of the word "resarcher" as an academic title even years after one has finished their PhD and is maybe no longer working as a researcher but mainly as a professor, is something typical Italian. Even if you look at the CV of Carla Vecchiotti you would notice that she obtained her degree in 1978, they she became "researcher" in 1986, but she still had only the title of "researcher" during the 2000s. She was already 50 in 2000, she was working as a professor, basically teaching and not doing much research, yet her title was "researcher" and remained so for several years on.

So this is a 'review of the literature' not original research. This is presented for a conference and is published in its proceedings. This would not be regarded as a peer reviewed publication. The usual reason for churning out one of these is because your employer only allows you attend a conference if you have paper in. Conferences facilitate this by accepting almost anything.
 
In the defense motions debate on October 9 Bongiorno says on page 44 that Raffaele was definitely at the police station when someone accessed his computer on the 5th.

And on page 25 (if I read it correctly), Guede's attorney Francesco Maresca opposed the defense entering the Skype call into evidence. Of course he would. I shouldn't be surprised.
 
One other thing I hope we can clear up. Del Prato said the cops told her they didn't know what to do with Guede after he was arrested and charged so they let him go.

He wasn't a secret agent put on a train back to Perugia.
 
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