Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
Her role wasn’t that of a ‘researcher’ [repeat visits to the crime scene notwithstanding] and that’s not a ‘forensic study manual’, it’s a Portuguese translation of a Tom Clancy novel which you are holding upside down.

I am calling you out for dishonesty. . . . .On my desk at home, I have a college course book on forensic procedures which I acquired from a friend who is a student at ITT. It lays out specific procedures you need to follow at a crime scene. She did not follow those procedures.
 
Do you understand tactical thinking at all?
Raffaele does not in any way think that Amanda is guilty although I would not blame him for hating her for screwing up his life even if unintentionally. It is simply that he is taking the position that if they want to blame Amanda, leave him out of it.

Yes I understand your tactical thinking. But I also think I would do the same if I were guilty.
 
I am curious about the expression Meredith's case.
I thought they were discussing Knox and Sollecito's case. A minor quibble, but I sense a let's put Meredith at the centre because she is the true victim thing going on.
She is dead and there are two very live victims to consider and refer to, and indeed were named by the Procuratore in the state's appeal document..

I would be dead so I don't think I would care at that point but it would really bother me that a friend is being crucified (figuratively) for my murder once I am dead if they are innocent. As a side note: I live in a death penalty state and would not want somebody who kills me to be executed.
 
Last edited:
Yes I understand your tactical thinking. But I also think I would do the same if I were guilty.

From researching many cases, I expect that (if they were guilty), once one broke they would all roll over on each other trying to minimize their own involvement while blaming others. I would have expected this almost from day one and they would have quickly rolled over on Guede as well.

Edit: A good example of this is Diane Zamora and David Graham. Otherwise, you might want to watch the TV show "Wicked Attraction / Couples that Kill" for examples.
 
Last edited:
From researching many cases, I expect that (if they were guilty), once one broke they would all roll over on each other trying to minimize their own involvement while blaming others. I would have expected this almost from day one and they would have quickly rolled over on Guede as well.

Edit: A good example of this is Diane Zamora and David Graham. Otherwise, you might want to watch the TV show "Wicked Attraction / Couples that Kill" for examples.

Yes this is the most frequent course. Also Mignini said he had expected they would talk. And also Guede feared for long this would happen, this is why he asked for an abbreviated trial.
But there are also cases where this doesn't happen, or at least not at early stages.
I think there were two elements that contributed to 'freeze' the events for a while in this case, factualy helping the suspects taking time, that was 1) the false accusation of Patrick Lumumba, and 2) the identification in absentia of Rudy Guede. These created a suspended situation of 'waiting' on established positions, a status quo which the lawyers later took care of making become permanent.
 
Her role wasn’t that of a ‘researcher’ [repeat visits to the crime scene notwithstanding] and that’s not a ‘forensic study manual’, it’s a Portuguese translation of a Tom Clancy novel which you are holding upside down.




ch What did you make of RS's recent TV appearance?

I have not seen the program but have read accounts in various media. It appears from what I have read somewhat a repeat of his previous press conference (which I did see) with some added details. It seems he doesnt quite alibi Amanda but he also doesn't accuse her.

Maybe the reason why is as Machiavelli states upthread.
 
I am curious about the expression Meredith's case.
I thought they were discussing Knox and Sollecito's case. A minor quibble, but I sense a let's put Meredith at the centre because she is the true victim thing going on.
She is dead and there are two very live victims to consider and refer to, and indeed were named by the Procuratore in the state's appeal document..

I use Meredith's name, as well as Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy when discussing this case. Read into that what you will.
 
He decided to not defend her, because he knows she is indefensible.
He also decided not to blame her, in order to avoid the risk of being blamed.

This is what I mean about your double standard.... you say, "he knows she is indefensible"?

How on earth do you know that? What has he ever said that indicates that? More importantly, why do all his documents say she is innocent?
 
Yes this is the most frequent course. Also Mignini said he had expected they would talk. And also Guede feared for long this would happen, this is why he asked for an abbreviated trial.
But there are also cases where this doesn't happen, or at least not at early stages.
I think there were two elements that contributed to 'freeze' the events for a while in this case, factualy helping the suspects taking time, that was 1) the false accusation of Patrick Lumumba, and 2) the identification in absentia of Rudy Guede. These created a suspended situation of 'waiting' on established positions, a status quo which the lawyers later took care of making become permanent.

Actually, the false accusation is classic with coerced false confessions. It is almost always somebody who the police / prosecutors point out. Good example of this are Jessie Misskelley of the West Memphis Three and various members of the Norfolk Four blaming each other. While Jessie Misskelley (WM3) and Joseph J. Dick Jr (N4) are low function, Derek Tice and Eric Wilson (Both N4) are quite intelligent (Edit: I would say comparable to Amanda.)
 
Last edited:
I have not seen the program but have read accounts in various media. It appears from what I have read somewhat a repeat of his previous press conference (which I did see) with some added details. It seems he doesnt quite alibi Amanda but he also doesn't accuse her. Maybe the reason why is as Machiavelli states upthread.


And what do you make of that? Given that she claims they were together in the critical period.
 
Last edited:
Yes this is the most frequent course. Also Mignini said he had expected they would talk. And also Guede feared for long this would happen, this is why he asked for an abbreviated trial.
But there are also cases where this doesn't happen, or at least not at early stages.
I think there were two elements that contributed to 'freeze' the events for a while in this case, factualy helping the suspects taking time, that was 1) the false accusation of Patrick Lumumba, and 2) the identification in absentia of Rudy Guede. These created a suspended situation of 'waiting' on established positions, a status quo which the lawyers later took care of making become permanent.
I have to agree with most of that.
However, I do find it strange that Knox and Sollecito have not made a full confession, knowing that at any time Guede could seal their fates by telling everyone how they made contact with him, where they met, what time Knox let him into 7 villa pergola, where Meredith was when they entered, and what conversations ensued. Because he never touched a knife, he would be entitled to expect more sentence mitigation. <SNIP>

Edited by jsfisher: 
Rule 9 violation removed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lying! Perish the thought.
It just that we have a difference of opinion on the matter.
You know like AK & RS on the subject of where she was on the night of the murder. Perhaps I am wearing the wrong shoes or something and that's clouding my judgement.

[If I strain very hard it appears to be 'I love Britney']

What are you even talking about. . . .
My concern is with the forensic evidence and cases of false confession.
Amanda couple the most horrid person and be innocent or be the nicest person and guilty. It is about the evidence to me. This case you have no good physical or circumstantial evidence.
 
And what do you make of that? Given that she claims they were together in the critical period.

I don't know what to make of it. Is it as Machiavelli says or is it his awkwardness of speech and appearance before a camera or maybe some of the two?

If deliberate on his part I would say it is his gradual falling away from Amanda. If the appeal conviction is confirmed it will be interesting to see what, if anything further, he will say.
 
I have not seen the program but have read accounts in various media. It appears from what I have read somewhat a repeat of his previous press conference (which I did see) with some added details. It seems he doesnt quite alibi Amanda but he also doesn't accuse her.

Maybe the reason why is as Machiavelli states upthread.

Here's the link to the program in case you want to see it. I tried to watch it, and I don't speak Italian (hence, involved lots of video pausing and phonetic reading with moving lips).

http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-4096b4e9-75b8-4815-9717-135e2afd9e73.html

You don't actually think that Amanda and Raf might have, could have, would have, had any involvement of any kind in Meredtih's death, or involvement of any kind with Rudy Guede? I can't tell from your posts where you're coming from.
 
Actually, the false accusation is classic with coerced false confessions. It is almost always somebody who the police / prosecutors point out. Good example of this are Jessie Misskelley of the West Memphis Three and various members of the Norfolk Four blaming each other. While Jessie Misskelley (WM3) and Joseph J. Dick Jr (N4) are low function, Derek Tice and Eric Wilson (Both N4) are quite intelligent (Edit: I would say comparable to Amanda.)

Well I am afraid Knox told a big heap of lies also before her false confession and in her Dec. 17. interrogation.
(in her book too, btw).

I can't see her inconsistencies - those highlighted in the Dec. 17 interrogation for example - as acceptable from a person who is not a liar.

But I also think her 05:45 statement and, above all, her hand written memoriales, show she is lying.

The concept of "false confession" of "false accusation" just defined like that as general terms and linked to the word "coerced", I think that's, well, simply something general, of no value.
Anything called "confession" or "accusation" or "false" could be something "coerced", but could well be malicious as well. As long as you don't look at details you won't know anything.
What Knox said qualifies her as a malicious liar because of the specific details of the things she said, and of time and circumstances when she said these things.
 
I don't know what to make of it. Is it as Machiavelli says or is it his awkwardness of speech and appearance before a camera or maybe some of the two?

If deliberate on his part I would say it is his gradual falling away from Amanda. If the appeal conviction is confirmed it will be interesting to see what, if anything further, he will say.

Really.

OK:)
 
This is what I mean about your double standard.... you say, "he knows she is indefensible"?

How on earth do you know that? What has he ever said that indicates that? More importantly, why do all his documents say she is innocent?

By the way, did you notice Sollecito lied, and that he is belied by an official legal paper?
 
I don't know what to make of it. Is it as Machiavelli says or is it his awkwardness of speech and appearance before a camera or maybe some of the two?

If deliberate on his part I would say it is his gradual falling away from Amanda. If the appeal conviction is confirmed it will be interesting to see what, if anything further, he will say.

I copy and paste for you this comment that I posted on TJMK and PMF (some points about Sollecito’s performance at Porta a Porta):


1. About the question: what does he say on whether Knox went out that evening. Did he actually say that?
I listened again to the interview, and what I can say is: if you listen carefully, you can understand he does not state Knox went out that night, but what happens is Bruno Vespa does not understand correctly what he means (but who would?) and he understands that he is talking about the night while he probably talks about the morning. When Sollecito says “Knox went out” and “she came back”, and then soon after he says “she came back in the morning”, Bruno Vespa understands that he is talking about the night; I think most likely Sollecito in his broken speech refers to what she did in the morning, but this is not clear at all. Bruno Vespa asks him more than once to be more precise, whether he is talking about the night; Sollecito also apparently doesn’t get the questions entirely and mixes up topics of when she came back and went out at night and what she did in the morning. He mixes up also Vespa’s questions when Vespa seems to point out he means a different topic, so you don’t always understand what he is taking about and not everything is really clear. But I tend to assume he says that he doesn’t know where Amanda was, rather than stating that “she was out” during the evening. However we should note point 2.

2. Something I found remarkable: Sollecito cites multiple times his interrogation before the GIP Claudia Matteini. He claims what he says that interrogation is his version, it seems that he stands by it. I find this a remarkable point, since in that questioning he states some things, including that Amanda went out during the evening.

3. The setting of the program was definitely favourable to Sollecito’s defence. In fact the aired reports looked like they were written directly by his PR consultants. But perceivably, as a person in the studio he failed to convince Bruno Vespa, who at the end wished him “good luck” as a “father” but, putting big distance the two roles, he looked in an opposite direction “as a citizen” hoping the Cassazione would bring “justice”. The politely skeptical expression of Bruno Vespa can be noticed even by those who don’t understand Italian.

4. His performance was about a series of old rehearsed points, which included several lies. For example, when he claims that it was only his experts who discovered the wrong attribution of the shoeprint.

5. Another glaring lie, this one stands out for the first time in an interview with Raffaele, is when he mentions Filomena’s door, saying it was “socchiusa”. What is interesting is he brings it up himself, he intends to bring it as an argument to Knox’s inconsistence, to point out that there are strange things about her behaviour Amanda Knox should explain. The remarkable contradiction that we see instead, is that in his police statements, and in his diaries, he said “spalancata”.

6. His answers on direct questions are convoluted to say the least. Just look what he says when Bruno Vespa asks him if Amanda went out that evening, Vespa also pointing out how Amanda claimed they were together (so he was her alibi). Sollecito starts a complicated statement that begins with “ho rimostrato le mie piccole perplessità” because when he and his lawyers examined the papers more “thoroughly” they found out that “the judges were placing responsibility on Amanda” about “things that she did and said”… and so on with this incredible rambling statement that gets lost in circles (where Knox went that night, is that an answer that should depend on his lawyers examining thoroughly the papers to discover something the judges thought about what Knox said… you can’t follow that.)

7. Apparently Sollecito found out that there was blood in the bathroom only when he saw that at the apartment. From his interview it seems Knox didn’t tell him about it.

8. Overall one perceives Sollecito puts some distance between him and Amanda. He is annoyed about having to answer about “mistakes and choices” of Knox, he shoves that away emphasizing that “she has things to explain” and he just can’t answer for her actions. He has no clue why she said or did some things. Bruno Vespa seems incredulous, slightly exasperated, about such unrealistic ‘detachment’ from Knox’s statements.

9. By the end of his interview I noticed one thing more he says that is an outright lie. Bruno Vespa asks why did he refuse to be questioned. He asks him: why did you never answer questions?
Sollecito answers: you should ask all the magistrates and judges, they never asked me; I was always available to be heard for questioning, I never refused but they never asked me.
Besides being a ridiculous argument, this is false.
The truth is Raffaele was not ready to be questioned, he refused to answer questions. invoked his right to remain silent when the magistrate (Mignini) summoned him for interrogation on Dec. 20. 2007.
Amanda accepted, but her interrogation turned out catastrophic on Dec. 17. Maybe Sollecito’s defence got scared because of this. What happened anyway, is that he invoked his right to remain silent, he refused to answer questions. I note that he lies before Bruno Vespa about this.


* * *

About point 6. TheConte on PMF wrote this comment:


(...) This was the point where RS lost all possible credibility for me (or would have if he had had any to begin with!) I've just finished watching the interview (my main feeling is that Stabbetta was let off very lightly indeed). Why didn't Vespa push him on whether Amanda was with him the whole evening and night or not?

When asked by Vespa if Amanda went out that evening or night there are only three possible answers:

1) Yes
2) No
3) I don't know/can't be certain etc.

Instead Sollecito ums and ehs for a bit not making any sense and then says that when he and his lawyers looked at the court documents more closely they realised there was a lot of evidence that shows that Konxy wasn't at Sollecito's for at least some of the time that the two claimed they were both in his flat. He then implies that he has come to the conclusion that it is better not to talk about whether she went out or not as that gives him more options and makes his defense stronger!

Who can trust or believe somebody that is not interested in telling the truth, nor even their best truth, but is going to go with the version of events that makes the best defense strategy (AND is stupid enough to admit this on national television!!!)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom