Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dancing David]

A
Zimmerman’s legal team might live to regret forcing the last judge off the case because Nelson runs a tight ship and tends to favor the prosecution, Central Florida lawyers said. /QUOTE]

I find this interesting, this is true in almost any court. Most judges run a tight court and most will not allow grandstanding by either side. In fact court is almost never like anything on TV or in movies. It is overwhelmingly repetitive, dull and boring.

The basis of the statement 'favors the prosecution' is a hard metric to define. It most likely means that they do not favor endless continuations while the defense waits for time to simmer things down, the stalling tactics of defense teams are a standard part of trials. The defense has good reason to try to find out exactly what evidence there is and how it will be used, that is one reason for stalling, as is keeping your client out on bond. But this judge may just cut to the chase, unless the defense can actually show that there is a reason for continuing the case, that there is actual evidence that will change etc... , then they may not agree to lots of postponement.

This does work to the advantage of the prosecution, memories are clearer, details are fresher, there is less wiggle room to play with, less ability to schedule contradictory expert witnesses. Now it could be that the judge is also harder on the defense when it comes to jury selection and wants a clear reason for why potential jurors are excused. The defense will usually (not always) have a much longer list of things they don't want in potential jurors than the prosecution, now in this vase they may be about equal.

 

[Cylinder]

It's my understanding that Judge Nelson is required to review every decision made so far in this case by previous judge(s), and possibly make changes. Is that correct?

Not really. The defense can revisit past orders but the review begins with the presumption that the orginal order was correct.

 

[Dancing David]

You've experienced how they "think"? Interesting.

So me pointing out that judges politics and philosophies often affects their rulings is "political rhetoric"?

If you think that the behavior of judges on the SCOTUS is the same as the behavior in trial courts, then : yes.

Correct, and the way they interpret and enforce those laws is often defined by their political leanings.

Nope, that would be bias and likely to be appealed and over ruled. Trial judges do not have as much leeway as people think. In a bench trial they have the ability to determine a sentence that will follow the local custom.

Feel free to explain why all the conservative justices and all the liberal justices on the supreme court just always happen to vote in the same blocs on major cases if that's not the case. Also feel free to explain why each political party looks upon the appointment of supreme court justices with such importance. After all, if judges just "rule on the law" it shouldn't matter which party they are appointed by.

SCOTUS =/= a trial court.

Yes, then they get decided on by other judges who also have strong political leanings.

Oh well, if you have a friend who was a clerk than I can't believe I'm questioning your expertise.

You seem to want to disagree over what is beyond debate,

a argumentum ad populum is not really a good path

even when I acknowledged that there are certainly judges that do aspire to interpret the law without bias. There is no contradiction between that, and also acknowledging that judges political beliefs (as well of other beliefs of course) are often going to affect their rulings.

Not really, they only have a certain amount of latitude in a trail court.

The political party affiliation is part of our system, however trial judges are constrained by legislation, the history of case law and the appeals process. Any decision that is made based upon a political belief has to occur within the limited degrees of freedom allowed by the three factors. Judges do not have that much leeway.

Maybe it would help if you discussed the specifics of where the political beliefs of a trial judge would effect their decisions?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Would it help convince you if one of the witnesses said George walked back in the direction of the tee. If not, don't bother looking at pages 16 through 18 of the second discovery PDF.

Why should I help you out if you are just going to sit there and spin? The question on the table is simple: Do you believe based on the evidence seen so far that George walked back to the tee after shooting Travon and before officer Smith apprehended him?

In her original audio interview, W18 only said GZ moved 'a few feet away' from TM body.
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W18_SPD02262012(2).wav
In the first discovery, her written statement says 10-20 feet.

Prior to you posting the time references to W13, that was all the evidence that had been discussed, which, in my opinion, does not get GZ "back to the Tee" as you said. Closer to the Tee and further from TM body, sure.

What kind of crap argument is that? Read what I said in my initial post which I had already reposted for your benifit. Try replying to what I am actually saying not what you want to believe I am saying.

I hilited what you said. "George walked back to the tee". It's ambiguous. Did he walk back to the Tee, meaning he got there ? Or did he walk back to the tee, meaning towards but not there ?

All of the evidence that has been posted so far is consistent with George being near the tee at the time of his arrest. You have not presented an alternative interpretation with which to make a comparison so my interpretation wins by default. You have lost the argument.

I disagree. W18 original audio statement is not consistent. Depending on how you define near, her written statement might not be consistent either.

ETA: in the taped interview of witness 13 (available here) we learn exactly where George was. (about 7.5 min. on the second interview)

So W13 disagrees with W18. For those that didn't listen, W13 sounds like he says GZ was 6-8 feet from the other sidewalk, which I assume means the Tee.

ETA2: about 11:20 in the same interview, witness 13 describes the keychain flashlight with: "it looked like a flashlight to me anyhow". This is the first person on the scene and he isn't sure that the object is even a flashlight. While small, it has the obvious shape of a flashlight, if it were on there would be no doubt at all what its function was.

Not if it were dim and washed out by the light from his flashlight.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Judge Debra S Nelson, 18th Judicial Circuit, appointed by Jeb Bush, thirteen years in current capacity, a conservative with a picture of John Lennon (Imagine that!) on her office wall, worked for a year as a substitute teacher after graduation. Doesn't like attorneys wasting her time.

She has a rep as being a children's advocate and knows the law backwards and forwards. GZ might have done better to stay with JKL. We'll see!

There's no need to read into my posts that which doesn't exist. Nothing at all to do with either having more knowledge of the law than the other.

So when you say "knows the law backwards and forwards." that wasn't a comparison with Lester ? It sure reads like it.

Especially when directly after that stament you write "Z might have done better to stay with JKL" I am only reading into your post exactly what you wrote. Why might Z have been better ? Are you implying that Nelson already may have a bias against GZ ?

The appeals court voted 2-1, making no statements about their decision. While I hoped JKL would stay, there can be nothing in the building of this case that will come back on appeal at a later date.

This is what the COA said:

http://www.5dca.org/Clerk/George Zimmerman 12-3198/5D12-3198.op.pdf

Florida Rule of Judicial Administration 2.330 requires a trial judge to grant a
motion to disqualify without determining the accuracy of the allegations in the motion, so long as the motion is "legally sufficient." R.M.C., 77 So. 3d at 236. "A motion is legally sufficient if it alleges facts that would create in a reasonably prudent person a well founded fear of not receiving a fair and impartial trial." Id. (citing MacKenzie v. Super Kids Bargain Store, Inc., 565 So. 2d 1332 (Fla. 1990)). Although many of the allegations in Zimmerman's motion, standing alone, do not meet the legal sufficiency test,1 and while this is admittedly a close call, upon careful review we find that the allegations, taken together, meet the threshold test of legal sufficiency. Accordingly, we direct the trial judge to enter an order of disqualification which requests the chief circuit judge to appoint a successor
judge.

I don't think this document says what you think it says.

I think it says that Lesters remarks, taken in total, would make a reasonably prudent person afraid of not getting a fair trial.

Was it it you believe I think it says ?

 

[Cylinder]

W18 original audio statement is not consistent. Depending on how you define near, her written statement might not be consistent either.

W18 is all over the map - especially when you add in her media statements, The most useful information from her, I think, is in suppory of W11, W13 and W6 to show that the confrontation began near the T. Her 911 call is also helpful to show just how quickly SPD responded after the shooting. She does not make a good detatched witness. She is a bit hysterical and seems to personalize everything. She was the source of one of the original complaints of a whitewash. SPD declined her offer to go upstairs and look out the window she had veiwed the altercation from and she was a bit off-put regarding the amount of time SPD spent with her - thus the 12 page rambling written statement she later gave to police.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman Defense Begins Discovery Process

The Defense has begun its own discovery process now that the State has delivered substantially all of its discovery in the case against George Zimmerman. To date, there are still a number of items that the State has not submitted to the Defense that we feel are relevant to the case. We will be seeking these items and evidence through all appropriate means.

Our first request is a series of Subpoenas for Production of Documents requesting school records for Trayvon Martin. In the coming weeks, we will be issuing subpoenas for other items including potentially relevant data from social media platforms, reports related to chain of custody to key evidence, interviews and more.

It has become our practice to post to our website legal documents related the case as they become public record, and this will continue to be the case with our discovery requests. Moreover, any discovery we submit that becomes public record will also be posted on our website. In the case of Trayvon Martin’s school records, they are protected and will NOT be part of the public record, without appropriate court order.

From the school subpeanas:

Entire school file records, including, but not limited to, disciplinary notices and reports, suspension notices and reports, attendance records, tardiness records, awards given, documentation of involvement in sports, documentation of extracurricular activities, documentation of after school programs, progress and report cards, meetings/conferences held and notes, transcripts, SAT scores, FCAT scores, applications, class schedules, book fees and any and all other documentation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman defense begins discovery process

http://gzlegalcase.com/

The Defense has begun its own discovery process now that the State has delivered substantially all of its discovery in the case against George Zimmerman. To date, there are still a number of items that the State has not submitted to the Defense that we feel are relevant to the case. We will be seeking these items and evidence through all appropriate means.

Our first request is a series of Subpoenas for Production of Documents requesting school records for Trayvon Martin. In the coming weeks, we will be issuing subpoenas for other items including potentially relevant data from social media platforms, reports related to chain of custody to key evidence, interviews and more.

I hope no one 'accidentally' emails TMs school records to the media outlets like GZ records.

 

[Cylinder]

I'm especially interested in "reports related to chain of custody to key evidence." SPD has some 'splainin' to do regarding the leaked evidence.

 

[Cylinder]

Via the Orlando Sentinel

Sanford police chief: PIO could have done better job during Trayvon Martin investigation

just-released memo from Sanford's interim police chief spells out why he re-assigned Sgt. David Morgenstern, who served as spokesman during the Trayvon Martin homicide investigation: Morgenstern doesn't have the skills for the job.

Interim Chief Richard Myers wrote the memo Aug. 15 because Morgenstern had continued to press him for permission to moonlight as a media relations coach.

Myers gave his permission, after explaining that Morgenstern needed to understand that his reputation for media work is not good.

Morgenstern has a "blind spot" about his abilities as public information officer and the misperception that he's "done an outstanding job," Myers wrote.

Like Det. Serino, Morgenstern was recently "promoted" from PIO to patrol duty. Myers is taking applicants with a media background for the position.

Seemingly contrary to public records laws, Myers ordered Morgenstern to keep the memo secret.

You are to treat this memo as Private and Confidential; you have the only printed copy and are directed to keep this for your eyes only

.

The original memo can be found here.

 

[Dancing David]

Zimmerman Defense Begins Discovery Process



From the school subpeanas:

I really think it will be a stretch in discovery as to why TM's school records would matter. But that will be up to the judge, if they go there then GZ's past outside of the incident will be relevant as well. The discovery would have to show the bearing on TM's or GZ's behavior the night in question.

 

[Dancing David]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-mark-o-mara

Such incidents are not likely to be presented in court, lawyers say, because they're not relevant to the shooting.

"The general principle is that you can't engage in character assassination of a victim," said Hornsby. "They would have to show that they're relevant to a legal issue in the case."

Zimmerman says he reported Trayvon to police minutes before the shooting because the teen appeared to be suspicious. Though the school incidents might seem to support that observation, the defense has another problem, lawyers say: Zimmerman didn't know about Trayvon's past, so that couldn't have informed his behavior.

"Whether he was a good kid or a bad kid, Mr. Zimmerman did not know him, so that would not be relevant to Mr. Zimmerman's state of mind," said Longwood attorney Dean Reed.

Reed and Hornsby said the school records are likely more helpful to O'Mara in the court of public opinion.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Maybe it would help if you discussed the specifics of where the political beliefs of a trial judge would effect their decisions?

"Where" isn't the issue in my mind, "how" is the question. And the "how" is with confirmation bias, same as any human. I think we likely saw this in the first court where Lester was unable to think critically and somehow concluded with little evidence that GZ was "planning to flee". Judges may or may not try to put their personal feelings aside but that doesn't mean they'll be successful, not does it even mean they'll be aware that they aren't doing so.

Where I think it would be most likely to come into play might be borderline issue where it is the judges call.

I watched and read about a case in Texas where they put a man to death where the evidence is quite strong he was innocent. The deeply Christian prosecutor concluded he was a "devil worshiper" because he had a heavy metal poster at home. That guy'll probably be a judge in a few years. I'm sure he won't let his personal beliefs affect any of his judgments at all .

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Some updated documents:

http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html

Updated | Case Description
09-06-12 | Subpoena Miami Dade Public Schools
09-06-12 | Subpoena Norland Middle School
09-06-12 | Subpoena Krop Sr High
09-04-12 | Order of Reassignment to Judge Nelson

 

[Alt+F4]

Subpoena Norland Middle School

While it's typical to blame the victim, looking for "evidence" in one's middle school record is beyond contemptible. For our non-American readers, middle school is for children aged 11-14.

 

[Dan O.]

While it's typical to blame the victim, looking for "evidence" in one's middle school record is beyond contemptible. For our non-American readers, middle school is for children aged 11-14.

That's absolutely right. By the time a kid is in middle school they have already learned to hide their signs of future criminal behavior. To find an accurate predictor you would need to go back to the preschool records.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

While it's typical to blame the victim, looking for "evidence" in one's middle school record is beyond contemptible. For our non-American readers, middle school is for children aged 11-14.

I couldn't agree more, where does this attorney get off doing investigative work to defend his Client, to see if for instance, perhaps TM has a history of violence.

And I'm outraged the prosecutors talked to the woman who claimed she was molested by GZ when he was 7 (and continuing until he was 17). How dare they do that?!

 

[This is The End]

I couldn't agree more, where does this attorney get off doing investigative work to defend his Client, to see if for instance, perhaps TM has a history of violence.

So would you say, if they find your supposed "history of violence" in TMs junior high school records, that it has any relevance on who attacked whom first that night? Any at all?

If you say yes, the answer this:

If they find that TM had a history of defending himself, would that lead you to believe that Z attacked first?

Surely the second analogy shows you why it wouldn't be relevant to any specific situation, like the events of that night.


What would be relevant is actual solid evidence about the encounter, and what information the two parties would have had at the time of the encounter.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

While it's typical to blame the victim, looking for "evidence" in one's middle school record is beyond contemptible. For our non-American readers, middle school is for children aged 11-14.

Why is it beyond contemptible ?

Is it your position that there is no way possible that there is any relevant information to be found in 7th or 8th grade school records ?

Are 9th grade school records relevant ?

 

[johnny karate]

A little blast from the past to remind us all just how important any incidences of violent behavior in someone's history really are:

Ya, he pushed an undercover cop years ago, and had a legal spat with an ex-girlfriend. If that's not a history of reckless violent behavior, I don't know what is .

Yep, I mean almost everyone I've ever know who's pushed someone in a bar has ended up killing someone. With that type of in-depth criminal record and history of reckless violent behavior, it's just a matter of time.

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=8354434&highlight=undercover#post8354434

"felony assault on a police officer" = he pushed an undercover cop in a bar. It's not quite as egregious as it sounds. But yes, seven years ago, while in college, at a bar, GZ did something stupid but not particularly violent or horrible ( he pushed someone .. oh my !) that carries an huge penalty.

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=8252667&highlight=undercover#post8252667