Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Cylinder]

Interesting that this motion specifies GZ being able to meet with his attorneys when the attorney's office is in Seminole county.

Actually, MOM is in Orlando. That's Orange County.

 

[triforcharity]

They should modify it so he is remanded....that would be acceptable......

But seriously, this should be denied. It's not the courts problem if George is inconvenienced. He's got friends willing to lie for him, why can't they take care of the "other things"? Also, Skype is pretty inexpensive. Suck it up.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Interesting that this motion specifies GZ being able to meet with his attorneys when the attorney's office is in Seminole county.

I just checked on google maps, O'Mara's office is about five miles outside Seminole County.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Interesting that this motion specifies GZ being able to meet with his attorneys when the attorney's office is in Seminole county.

One would assume they're indicating they don't want to meet with him at those offices, which are easily watched, for security reasons. They may have another location/s they would like to use that is outside of Seminole.

 

[This is The End]

Interesting that this motion specifies GZ being able to meet with his attorneys when the attorney's office is in Seminole county.

The restriction of Mr. Zimmerman not to leave Seminole County has had an ongoing, deleterious effect on his ability to assist in the preparation of his own defense.

Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Even if O'Mara's office is in Orlando in Orange county (as it says at the bottom of the pdf, below his signature); it is right over the county line from Seminole county, where Z is already free to travel!

Instead of asking for a complete removal of the restriction of living in Seminole country, why didn't they just ask to add Orange county?? It's the adjacent county!! A logical request like that would almost surely would have been granted.

It seems they are either being greedy or that wasn't the real reason for the request.

Unless the judge can only grant or deny the motion and not alter it, I have a feeling he will just add Orange county to the condition.

Hmmmm, add the adjacent county when that is all they want or remove the travel restriction entirely and let Z travel the entire country! The judge isn't going to fall for that.

Here are the current bail conditions for anyone interested, with the one in question highlighted:

1. The Defendant's bail shall be set at $1,000,000 with the following conditions:

a. The Defendant shall refrain from criminal activity of any kind

b. The Defendant shall not have any contact with the victim's family, directly or indirectly, except as necessary to conduct pretrial discover through his attorneys

c. The Defendant shall be subject to electronic monitoring at his own expense

d. The Defendant shall not leave Seminole County without prior authorization by this Court
e. The Defendant shall check in with the Pre-trial Release Department every 48 hours

f. The Defendant shall not enter the property of the Orlando-Sanford International Airport

g. The Defendant shall not open or maintain a bank account

h. The Defendant shall not consume any alcohol

i. The Defendant shall obey a curfew between 6:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.

j. The Defendant shall not apply for or obtain a passport

I assume the Orlando-Sanford International Airport mentioned in condition F is on the Seminole county side of the Orange/Seminole county line or else it wouldn't make sense considering condition D.

 

[This is The End]

It does seem odd. I also noticed that at one point he said "can't" and at another point he said "cannot".

Unabogie asked if anyone else can detect a difference in how Z sounds between the tape we have of him on the night in question, and from other tapes we have. Pehaps to tell if he was perhaps intoxicated and/or under the influence of anything.

I can only assume from your sarcastic? response that you do not think that Z sounded different.

Did you listen to the comparisons?

Do you think it is possible to tell if someone is intoxicated by listening to how they speak? With multiple, distinct, and lengthy samples; of course.

Do you think it is possible that Z was under the influence of anything that night?

Could someone remind me what prescriptions Z was on at the time, or which document that information was in?

 

[Dan O.]

I disagree. It simply looks like a different angle. Why in the world would they move the keys to get a better picture when the next step is to collect the keys ... and then they can take pictures from whatever angle they want ???

If you focus only on the key fob, you could rationalize that the change in aspect is solely caused by the orientation of the camera. But I'm more of a whole picture person so I ask what else in these photos indicate the camera angle. The flashlight is on the ground and doesn't appear to move between the two photos. The circular lens end of the flashlight makes an easy reference. If desired, we could even map a tilted circle onto the circular end of the flashlight and measure the difference in the angle of the cameras. Will it be necessary to do this?

Why in the world would they move the keys? And, if they manipulated one, how do we trust any of the others?

 

[leftysergeant]

Watching the reenactment, I nearly died laughing at the knuckle bandages on GZs head. Those are NOT butterfly bandages. Perhaps the wife/nurse in training put those on for him. I guarantee you no medical professional did that business.

Maybe she is an addict or alcoholic, or at least a heavy drug user like most of her family seem to be? Who else could put up with vermin like Z?

 

[Dan O.]

Interesting that this motion specifies GZ being able to meet with his attorneys when the attorney's office is in Seminole county.

While O'mara lists himself as the former president of the Seminole County Bar Assocation, his law office is in Orange county. Maybe you are referring to GZ's other attorney.

 

[leftysergeant]

GZ statements don't count as evidence ?

Since the little twit is known to lie and to hang out with criminals, no.

 

[leftysergeant]

Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Even if O'Mara's office is in Orlando in Orange county (as it says at the bottom of the pdf, below his signature); it is right over the county line from Seminole county, where Z is already free to travel!

Instead of asking for a complete removal of the restriction of living in Seminole country, why didn't they just ask to add Orange county?? It's the adjacent county!! A logical request like that would almost surely would have been granted.

It seems they are either being greedy or that wasn't the real reason for the request.

Unless the judge can only grant or deny the motion and not alter it, I have a feeling he will just add Orange county to the condition.

Hmmmm, add the adjacent county when that is all they want or remove the travel restriction entirely and let Z travel the entire country! The judge isn't going to fall for that.

Z wants to do the Dr Phil Show for money. There is apparently not a suitable studio in Seminole County.

 

[Unabogie]

Unabogie asked if anyone else can detect a difference in how Z sounds between the tape we have of him on the night in question, and from other tapes we have. Pehaps to tell if he was perhaps intoxicated and/or under the influence of anything.

I can only assume from your sarcastic? response that you do not think that Z sounded different.

Did you listen to the comparisons?

Do you think it is possible to tell if someone is intoxicated by listening to how they speak? With multiple, distinct, and lengthy samples; of course.

Do you think it is possible that Z was under the influence of anything that night?

Could someone remind me what prescriptions Z was on at the time, or which document that information was in?

Thank you. I responded, but apparently my reply did not get through moderation, so I left it at that.

So the bond order was modified to include Orange County, but no where else.

Also, the judge will review the medical records to see what's in them and let the lawyers argue their case over them.

I'm wondering if there isn't a previous injury that they are looking into? After all, he has a history of spousal abuse (and if you believe him, mutual spousal abuse).

Also, he said that he and his wife were "mentoring" that day before heading out to the store. Who were they "mentoring"? Is there any record of this? Have any of the kids he allegedly mentored come out in support of him? And now that we know he has a history of being accused of child rape, should those "mentoring" sessions be viewed with suspicion?


Finally, yes, I think he sounds very different from the other recordings, so I wonder why. Was he drunk? On drugs? Disguising his voice for some reason? I don't know. I just know that to my ears he sounds like a different person and it strikes me as odd.

Do you hear it as well?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If you focus only on the key fob, you could rationalize that the change in aspect is solely caused by the orientation of the camera. But I'm more of a whole picture person so I ask what else in these photos indicate the camera angle. The flashlight is on the ground and doesn't appear to move between the two photos. The circular lens end of the flashlight makes an easy reference. If desired, we could even map a tilted circle onto the circular end of the flashlight and measure the difference in the angle of the cameras. Will it be necessary to do this?

Why in the world would they move the keys? And, if they manipulated one, how do we trust any of the others?

Dan,

I looked again, put the pics side by side, and I now agree with you. See, Internet discussions can occasionally cause people to change their minds.

The key fob appears to have been moved between the initial photograph and the photograph with the evidence marker.



Why, IDK.

 

[leftysergeant]

A lot of the prosecution's case rests on those medical records. It is, for instance, not a bit clear to a rational person that Z's nose was broken in the fight, absent X-rays. At this point, of course, X-rays would be useless without some evidence that he had not had his nose rearranged by some other person whom he had assaulted.

What medications he was on would also be useful in determining his state of mind.

The impression I get so far is that we have a lunatic who suffered some delusions that he was a police officer, in spite of the fact that he was utterly failing to achieve that ambition. He hangs out with violent thugs and drug abusers. He tells obvious lies to the cops and the court.

What other indication might there be that he is a danger to society if you start examining his records?

Frankly, I question his story about having his head smacked on the concrete (though I wish Martin had done so with enough force to permanently disable him so that he would be a burden on his family rather than on the state.) The injuries to the back of his head are more consistant with his having been knocked backward against a tree. The bruise or road rash next to the verticle cut on his scalp is semi-circular, bu arched in the wrong direction to be following the curvature of his skull.

There is no road rash on the chignon at the back of his head. This part of his skull is so prominet that it should have made firm contact with the concrete at several points.

There was a tree along the path that Martin and Z would have traveled from the T to where Martin fell. Several branches appear to have been cut off at various times, and a scar is forming around the stubs of those branches. This would produce a ring-shaped bruise on a head that hit it. Note, too, the lack of generalized swelling subdermally.

Likewise, the little owie on his nose does not appear to have been made by a large fist, unless the puncher were wearing a ring. And there is bruising only on an area that would have been partly sheltered from a fist. This, too, and the scratches on his forhead are consistant with running into a tree, but in this case, a low branch.

Z claims that Martin put his hands over Z's nose and mouth to keep him from screaming like a little girl. If Martin had broken Z's nose at the outset, there would have been blood on Z's face, but none was found on Martin's hands. This would mean that Z has lied to police about a MAJOR point.

Note, too, that the screams stopped immediately upon the firing of one shot. Z claims that he had been screaming "help." As many times as I have listened to the recordings, it still sounds like someone screaming "NO!" as though begging the maniac with the gun not to shoot him.

In his statement,Z claims that, after he fired, Martin raised his hands and said "You got me."

This is utterly impossible. Martin had a massive sucking chest wound and collapsed and punctured lungs. His blood pressure clearly would have dropped rapidly, but there is global edema of the cerebrum in the autopsy report. This is consistant with a concussion, but there is no trauma to the outside of his skull.

The most logical conclusion would be that he was killed instantly by the hydrostatic shock of a mushroomed hollow point round delivering at least 300 Joules of energy in one blast directly to his blood stream.

Now, will someone tell that ditz Rene Stutzman that she makes a lousy crime reporter?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

A lot of the prosecution's case rests on those medical records. It is, for instance, not a bit clear to a rational person that Z's nose was broken in the fight, absent X-rays. At this point, of course, X-rays would be useless without some evidence that he had not had his nose rearranged by some other person whom he had assaulted.

What medications he was on would also be useful in determining his state of mind.

The impression I get so far is that we have a lunatic who suffered some delusions that he was a police officer, in spite of the fact that he was utterly failing to achieve that ambition. He hangs out with violent thugs and drug abusers. He tells obvious lies to the cops and the court.

What other indication might there be that he is a danger to society if you start examining his records?

Frankly, I question his story about having his head smacked on the concrete (though I wish Martin had done so with enough force to permanently disable him so that he would be a burden on his family rather than on the state.) The injuries to the back of his head are more consistant with his having been knocked backward against a tree. The bruise or road rash next to the verticle cut on his scalp is semi-circular, bu arched in the wrong direction to be following the curvature of his skull.

There is no road rash on the chignon at the back of his head. This part of his skull is so prominet that it should have made firm contact with the concrete at several points.

There was a tree along the path that Martin and Z would have traveled from the T to where Martin fell. Several branches appear to have been cut off at various times, and a scar is forming around the stubs of those branches. This would produce a ring-shaped bruise on a head that hit it. Note, too, the lack of generalized swelling subdermally.

Likewise, the little owie on his nose does not appear to have been made by a large fist, unless the puncher were wearing a ring. And there is bruising only on an area that would have been partly sheltered from a fist. This, too, and the scratches on his forhead are consistant with running into a tree, but in this case, a low branch.

Z claims that Martin put his hands over Z's nose and mouth to keep him from screaming like a little girl. If Martin had broken Z's nose at the outset, there would have been blood on Z's face, but none was found on Martin's hands. This would mean that Z has lied to police about a MAJOR point.

Note, too, that the screams stopped immediately upon the firing of one shot. Z claims that he had been screaming "help." As many times as I have listened to the recordings, it still sounds like someone screaming "NO!" as though begging the maniac with the gun not to shoot him.

In his statement,Z claims that, after he fired, Martin raised his hands and said "You got me."

This is utterly impossible. Martin had a massive sucking chest wound and collapsed and punctured lungs. His blood pressure clearly would have dropped rapidly, but there is global edema of the cerebrum in the autopsy report. This is consistant with a concussion, but there is no trauma to the outside of his skull.

The most logical conclusion would be that he was killed instantly by the hydrostatic shock of a mushroomed hollow point round delivering at least 300 Joules of energy in one blast directly to his blood stream.

Now, will someone tell that ditz Rene Stutzman that she makes a lousy crime reporter?

You forgot to accuse GZ of being a serial killer. I see that like others you state that it would be "utterly impossible" for TM to have said something after he was shot based on your advanced diagnosis that he had a "massive sucking chest wound" (though this is in contrast to the other blog making the same assertion that used their deep medical expertise to say "it's impossible with an exploded heart".)


Anyhow, do you have any sources you'd like to cite to back up your assertion?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thank you. I responded, but apparently my reply did not get through moderation, so I left it at that.

So the bond order was modified to include Orange County, but no where else.

Also, the judge will review the medical records to see what's in them and let the lawyers argue their case over them.

I'm wondering if there isn't a previous injury that they are looking into? After all, he has a history of spousal abuse (and if you believe him, mutual spousal abuse).

So, mutual restraining orders between GZ and his girlfriend have morphed into 'a history of spousal abuse' ?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara-george-zimmerman
But de la Rionda, in paperwork filed today, said that what O'Mara released wasn't enough. The state needs to know, he wrote, if there are X-rays, photos or other doctor's office records that document Zimmerman's injuries.

Do you have some reason to believe that is not actually the case ? That the SAO has secretly learned about a previous injury ?

Also, he said that he and his wife were "mentoring" that day before heading out to the store. Who were they "mentoring"? Is there any record of this? Have any of the kids he allegedly mentored come out in support of him?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...artin-incident/story?id=15999256#.UDfAotZlTsY
Sonner insisted that Zimmerman is not a racist, pointing out that he and his wife mentored for two black children for free."When I asked this mother [of the mentees], who trusted [Zimmerman and his wife], and she's an African-American, if she trusted George Zimmerman, she said she did, and I asked her if there was anything that caused her to believe that she was a racist, and she said, 'Absolutely not.' And I said, went further, 'Did you ever hear him use racial slurs in any time that you'd been around him?' And she said, 'no' as well," Sonner said.

And now that we know he has a history of being accused of child rape, should those "mentoring" sessions be viewed with suspicion?

That is your argument ? That he has a 'history' or being accused ?

Finally, yes, I think he sounds very different from the other recordings, so I wonder why. Was he drunk? On drugs? Disguising his voice for some reason? I don't know. I just know that to my ears he sounds like a different person and it strikes me as odd.

Do you hear it as well?

No, I don't hear it. I'll ask again - don't you think LEOs who are trained to observe people would have noticed during all those hours in the police station if GZ was impaired in some way ? Don't you think LEOs would have asked for a blood sample or a sobriety test if they thought GZ was impaired in some way ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

A lot of the prosecution's case rests on those medical records. It is, for instance, not a bit clear to a rational person that Z's nose was broken in the fight, absent X-rays. At this point, of course, X-rays would be useless without some evidence that he had not had his nose rearranged by some other person whom he had assaulted.

Please explain how you think it makes a major difference for the prosecution if GZ nose was actually broken or not ?

Does it somehow affect GZ claim that TM was on top of him, or that he felt TM reaching for his gun and he feared for his life ?

What medications he was on would also be useful in determining his state of mind.

His medications are listed in the medical report that was already released.

The impression I get so far is that we have a lunatic who suffered some delusions that he was a police officer, in spite of the fact that he was utterly failing to achieve that ambition. He hangs out with violent thugs and drug abusers. He tells obvious lies to the cops and the court.

Can you provide examples, or should we just believe your assertions ?

What other indication might there be that he is a danger to society if you start examining his records?

Frankly, I question his story about having his head smacked on the concrete (though I wish Martin had done so with enough force to permanently disable him so that he would be a burden on his family rather than on the state.) The injuries to the back of his head are more consistant with his having been knocked backward against a tree. The bruise or road rash next to the verticle cut on his scalp is semi-circular, bu arched in the wrong direction to be following the curvature of his skull.

There is no road rash on the chignon at the back of his head. This part of his skull is so prominet that it should have made firm contact with the concrete at several points.

There was a tree along the path that Martin and Z would have traveled from the T to where Martin fell. Several branches appear to have been cut off at various times, and a scar is forming around the stubs of those branches. This would produce a ring-shaped bruise on a head that hit it. Note, too, the lack of generalized swelling subdermally.

Likewise, the little owie on his nose does not appear to have been made by a large fist, unless the puncher were wearing a ring. And there is bruising only on an area that would have been partly sheltered from a fist. This, too, and the scratches on his forhead are consistant with running into a tree, but in this case, a low branch.

So, your claim is that GZ was not punched by TM, but ran into a tree ?

Z claims that Martin put his hands over Z's nose and mouth to keep him from screaming like a little girl. If Martin had broken Z's nose at the outset, there would have been blood on Z's face, but none was found on Martin's hands. This would mean that Z has lied to police about a MAJOR point.

Evidence that there was no blood found on TM hands ?

Note, too, that the screams stopped immediately upon the firing of one shot. Z claims that he had been screaming "help." As many times as I have listened to the recordings, it still sounds like someone screaming "NO!" as though begging the maniac with the gun not to shoot him.

In his statement,Z claims that, after he fired, Martin raised his hands and said "You got me."

This is utterly impossible. Martin had a massive sucking chest wound and collapsed and punctured lungs. His blood pressure clearly would have dropped rapidly, but there is global edema of the cerebrum in the autopsy report. This is consistant with a concussion, but there is no trauma to the outside of his skull.

We have already covered earlier in the thread the fact that people with collapsed and punctured lungs can still talk. There is absolutely nothing impossible about it.

The most logical conclusion would be that he was killed instantly by the hydrostatic shock of a mushroomed hollow point round delivering at least 300 Joules of energy in one blast directly to his blood stream.

Now, will someone tell that ditz Rene Stutzman that she makes a lousy crime reporter?

Actual doctors disagree with your logical conclusion. Is that what makes Rene Stutzman that she makes a lousy crime reporter ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

New discovery turned over to MOM:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-mark-o-mara

Also today, de la Rionda handed over to O'Mara the most recent batch of state evidence, according to court paperwork.

It includes Trayvon's cell phone records, 217 photos from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, eight photos taken by a private investigator hired by Trayvon's family, Zimmerman's school records from Manassas, Va., and eight Seminole County Sheriff's Office incident reports from the night Trayvon was shot.

Most of those – not including the cell phone records – should become public in the next week or so.

 

[Cylinder]

A lot of the prosecution's case rests on those medical records. It is, for instance, not a bit clear to a rational person that Z's nose was broken in the fight, absent X-rays. At this point, of course, X-rays would be useless without some evidence that he had not had his nose rearranged by some other person whom he had assaulted.

Of course, x-rays are not indicated to diagnose broken noses in the majority of uncomplicated cases. The flattened nose photo is a pretty good diagnostic indicator. Fire rescue, police and witnesses noticed Zimmerman's mis-shapen nose. The black eyes developing overnight is another good indication of the nature and timing of the injury.

Likewise, the little owie on his nose does not appear to have been made by a large fist, unless the puncher were wearing a ring. And there is bruising only on an area that would have been partly sheltered from a fist. This, too, and the scratches on his forhead are consistant with running into a tree, but in this case, a low branch.

Wow.

Z claims that Martin put his hands over Z's nose and mouth to keep him from screaming like a little girl. If Martin had broken Z's nose at the outset, there would have been blood on Z's face, but none was found on Martin's hands. This would mean that Z has lied to police about a MAJOR point.

Martin's hands were never tested for blood. The ME also failed to mention the blood around Martin's entrance wounds. His body was left in situ for nearly 3 hours in intermittent rain and being uncovered for various reasons. This is all a rehash of previously-debunked claims.

Note, too, that the screams stopped immediately upon the firing of one shot. Z claims that he had been screaming "help." As many times as I have listened to the recordings, it still sounds like someone screaming "NO!" as though begging the maniac with the gun not to shoot him.

And yet every witness to the screams who weren't listeneing through a poor-quality phone recording claims the screams were for help. The person closest to the altercation also asserts that Zimmerman was screamining help to him when he stepped out of his back door.

In his statement,Z claims that, after he fired, Martin raised his hands and said "You got me."

This is utterly impossible. Martin had a massive sucking chest wound and collapsed and punctured lungs. His blood pressure clearly would have dropped rapidly, but there is global edema of the cerebrum in the autopsy report. This is consistant with a concussion, but there is no trauma to the outside of his skull.

So every attack on Zimmerman requires massive injury and Zimmerman's attack on Martin leaves no mark. To paraphrase Eddie Murphy - I'm a ninja - I bruise on the inside.

The most logical conclusion would be that he was killed instantly by the hydrostatic shock of a mushroomed hollow point round delivering at least 300 Joules of energy in one blast directly to his blood stream.

Locigal? Not for any definition of that word I can find. I'll have to re-read the autopsy findings, but my guess is a loss of blood pressuse caused by a disruption of the normal cardiac rhythm and blood loss. At least one witness atates that Martin's leg was moving after the mortal injury and another claims he was vocal, though she has some confusion in the order of events.

 

[This is The End]

Z claims that he had been screaming "help." As many times as I have listened to the recordings, it still sounds like someone screaming "NO!" as though begging the maniac with the gun not to shoot him.

At least one of the "help"s is quite clear in the 8 second clip I linked to, you should listen to it.

Here's the last 8 seconds with volume normalized that was posted last week so everyone can hear for themselves:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=05894431095829727103&t=0589443109582972710386417

What I hear is a loud scream (at :02) then 2 seconds later (at :04) either a scream or a yell of "help" (that one is hard to tell because the dispatcher is talking) then 2 seconds later (at :06) a very clear yell of "help", then 1 second later (at :07) is the gunshot.

I really don't want to make any judgments about it....

Though I will say that it seems weird that Z would yell the word "help" again almost at the very instant he is pulling the trigger.