Conspiracy theoriests debunking other conspiracy theoriests

[Paradox74]

This website, abovetopsecret.com, seems to be a place for conspiracy theories...but it seems that it also allows open debate about its subjects, including an article about chemtrails vs contrails:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread575815/pg1

I've also read some of the comments and most of them sound pretty rational (or at least free of any rants and the like). Is it just me or is it that critical thinking is now finding its way into the domain of conspiracy theories?

Posts and comments are welcome.

 

[Horatius]

Is it just me or is it that critical thinking is now finding its way into the domain of conspiracy theories?

They've always been quite good at debunking each other, usually because their opponent's BS directly contradicts their own BS. When they start applying the same standards to their own arguments, that will be news.

Posts and comments are welcome.

Well, thank god for that!

 

[VonKleist]

IIRC there were a couple of rational, qualified people on ATS that would routinely debunk chemtrails.

In my experience ATS wasn't so bad as far as unchallenged CTs go. Nowhere near on the same scale as the Icke forums, Outlaw or Prison Planet.

 

[LightinDarkness]

ATS allows for limited debunking - but there are limits. Its true that this is more than you'll get on David Icke or Alex Jones forums, but it IS limited. Skeptic Guy, which is one of the owners of ATS (Skeptic Overlord), will come by to tell us how great ATS is within a day or so and tell me I'm wrong but hes the official ATS propagandist here.

Make no mistake - ATS makes money from and relies on fear and panic mongering. Its their bread and butter. Its just better than most conspiracy sites at the packaging. The posting system is set up to glorify sensationalism and CT group think. The flags/stars decide which posts get to the front page are based on this and represent the "atta boy! I agree!" button, but if you think a post is nuts theres no way to express that through the flag/star system.

They routinely "clean out" forums where debunking becomes "to much" for the forum residents. It happened in the 9/11 forums, the Secret Society forums, etc. - rational thinking is allowed but not once the resident woos start complaining past a certain point.

 

[SkepticGuy]

They routinely "clean out" forums where debunking becomes "to much" for the forum residents. It happened in the 9/11 forums, the Secret Society forums, etc. - rational thinking is allowed but not once the resident woos start complaining past a certain point.

That's not correct and has never happened. Do you have any evidence or specific event that would back up this unfounded statement?

With respect to the 9/11 forum, it was not the denial of the debunkery crowd that caused our "crack down," it was the habitual anger and vitriol of the "9/11 Truth" people. No "crack down" on debunking ever occurred.

The Secret Societies forum received similar attention due to an organized "gang" of Mason members engaging in intense trolling... but, again, no "crack down" on the posting of opinions/material that refutes conspiracies related to secretive groups was ever put in place. In fact, several of our moderation staff are Masons.


Again... I would like to see your evidence for such a statement.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

In fact, several of our moderation staff are Masons.

Does your community know that?

I'd imagine a revelation like that would send a good percentage of them into a downright tinfoil tizzy.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The Secret Societies forum received similar attention due to an organized "gang" of Mason members engaging in intense trolling...

A masonic conspiracy forced you guys to act like internet forum tyrants?

Frakking brilliant, man... WTG.

 

[Mojo]

They've always been quite good at debunking each other, usually because their opponent's BS directly contradicts their own BS. When they start applying the same standards to their own arguments, that will be news.

This contrasts with the approach in alternative medicine, which appears to be never to criticise other systems, the the point that you'll usually see contradictory BS sold by the same shop, and frequently practised by the same person.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

This contrasts with the approach in alternative medicine, which appears to be never to criticise other systems, the the point that you'll usually see contradictory BS sold by the same shop, and frequently practised by the same person.

the difference is alternative medicine isnt really a conspiracy theory (i know there are some big pharma CTs out there, but this isnt the focus for most people)

without the conspiracy theory, theres no one "out to get you" thus no need to be on the lookout for disinfo everywhere you go

 

[Mojo]

the difference is alternative medicine isnt really a conspiracy theory (i know there are some big pharma CTs out there, but this isnt the focus for most people)

without the conspiracy theory, theres no one "out to get you" thus no need to be on the lookout for disinfo everywhere you go

They rely on the same sort of selective approach to the evidence and lack of critical thinking, though, and many of them seem to think that the entire medical and scientific establishment (and some of the political establishment as well) is out to get them. Homoeopaths in particular have been circling the wagons lately.

In fact, it contrast with the situation in the 18th century, when the quacks of the day were quick to denounce each other. The important difference was that they weren't also competing against an orthodox medixcal system that was actually effective.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

They rely on the same sort of selective approach to the evidence and lack of critical thinking, though, and many of them seem to think that the entire medical and scientific establishment (and some of the political establishment as well) is out to get them. Homoeopaths in particular have been circling the wagons lately.

In fact, it contrast with the situation in the 18th century, when the quacks of the day were quick to denounce each other. The important difference was that they weren't also competing against an orthodox medixcal system that was actually effective.

i still think they lack the same paranoia at the 9/11 CTers

although in the early days there were a lot of people banding together with contradictory theories, seemingly at the time it was more important to oppose the government

will be interesting to see if the alt med crowd fall apart in the same way

 

[SkepticGuy]

Does your community know that?

Yes, they are aware.

 

[SkepticGuy]

A masonic conspiracy forced you guys to act like internet forum tyrants?

It's highly unlikely any "conspiracy" was involved beyond a handful of angry members banding together to vigorously "defend Masonry" from the oh-so-terrible speculative posts on ATS.

As for "forum tyrants," we've been accused of worse.

 

[uk_dave]

"speculative posts" = JAQing off?

 

[LightinDarkness]

A masonic conspiracy forced you guys to act like internet forum tyrants?

Frakking brilliant, man... WTG.

Like I said, rational posting is only allowed past a certain point - the asylum residents in the secret society forums were restless that there were to many masons taking away their fun. "Trolling" for SO equals anyone posting rationally that upsets the more popular members.

But its not just the secret societies, as I said. Its happened on the 9/11 forums and I believe even the predictions forums (to many people pointing out that all the predictions of doom never occur).

 

[LightinDarkness]

Does your community know that?

I'd imagine a revelation like that would send a good percentage of them into a downright tinfoil tizzy.

Most don't, although the more popular posters are indeed convinced that there is a masonic conspiracy going on. Even I must give credit to ATS where credit is due - it is one of the few conspiracy sites that will allow skepticism at all. But it is indeed limited, and if you go to far you will indeed get banned for it once the asylum residents get worked up. That places it in the top tier of conspiracy sites for allowing critical thinking at all. The science forums are still largely dominated by people proclaiming that chemtrails will kill us all, so some debunking is allowed. If it becomes to much, it will be dealt with.

Of course, the masons that ARE moderators on ATS aren't proponents of critical thinking generally - if they were, they wouldn't have been promoted through the ranks. I think there is a few closet skeptics, and I've talked to some of them, but they really have to keep it quiet. Thats the thing about freemasonry. With millions of members, your going to find some people that are masons who are just as into the woo and true believers as your average conspiracy theorist.

Its really gone down hill lately too. I used to read the site a few times a week, now I'm lucky if I even glance at it once every few weeks.

Edit: Wow, SO did respond quick. He's on ignore since his last trolling attempt, but I knew hed come to the rescue quickly For those unfamiliar with how SO operates, he constantly demands and then outright ignores evidence you present - its your average woo tactic. Its why hes on ignore - hes here to spread propaganda and not actually admit his board is a cesspool of fear mongering that he makes money from.

Whoops, to much debunking going on in the 9/11 forum, time to shut it down:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread528112/pg1

Uh-oh, to many masons ruining the fun of the anti-mason crowd, time to deal with them:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread335252/pg1

And we could go on and on. More evidence that SO will, of course, ignore and deflect - but thats what he always does. Its obvious for those of us not cashing in on the panic mongering. Have a good weekend, SO! Make sure you keep the fear mongering up - got to cash in on that oil spill, you know.

 

[SkepticGuy]

Wow, SO did respond quick. He's on ignore since his last trolling attempt

Apparently asking for evidence of extraordinary claims is considered "trolling."

How very woo-like.

 

[sadhatter]

Its called competition. Different ct's competing for the limited mind space and pocket money of the ct'ers.

And of course now said ct'ers can say " I am a skeptic, i think icke is full of it. But alex jones, that man is a genius".

If there is anything i will give the ct folks it is that they have a damn fine understanding of how to manipulate people.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It's highly unlikely any "conspiracy" was involved beyond a handful of angry members banding together to vigorously "defend Masonry" from the oh-so-terrible speculative posts on ATS.

You act as if it's unreasonable for someone to be angry when others "speculate" that he or she might be guilty of mass murder, treason and a host of other major felonies.

As for "forum tyrants," we've been accused of worse.

You're probably guilty of worse.

I'd go into further detail but then you'd try to dispute it and you'd have to ban yourself.

 

[ShadowSot]

I'm a member over on ATS, and thoroughly enjoyed the forum.
There are a fair number of skeptics over there that I know of, they brought me from my fairly wooish beliefs to where I am now.
Part of the reason I joined the JREF forum, really, was to find more people like them.