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conspiracy or joke?

If you're not in a uniform, or if you're in the uniform of a militia rather than the national military, and you commit an act of violence for a political reason -- even if that reason is to assist one side in a war, or to remove occupiers from your country -- and civilians or off-duty military get hurt, you're a terrorist.


Ah... that's not actually what it says.

The U.S. legal definition of terrorism is contained in Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d) which states: "The term terrorism means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience." The act contains a footnote explaining that noncombatant targets includes "military personnel who at the time of the incident are unarmed and/or not on duty."


If you're a subnational group or clandestine agent, and carry out an act of violence against noncombatants (including unarmed/off-duty military personnel) you're a terrorist.

I'm not sure what is meant by "subnational group", but this is the definition for an act of terrorism, not a terrorist. Members of Al Qaeda, for example, are actually legal combatants - they carry arms openly and operate under a military command structure. Yet they are still defined as a terrorist organisation, because they carry out terrorist attacks.

Personally I find the US definition of "terrorism" to be too narrow. Firstly, national military forces are just as capable of carrying out acts of terrorism. Secondly, acts of terrorism can still technically be carried out against on-duty soldiers.

I'll stick with the international definition... ;)

-Andrew
 
Some of you seem to be broadening the definition of "terrorism".
The U.S. government has a few different definitions, and some of them are indeed quite broad. This is a little controversial here in the U.S., but only a few people are complaining. Here are some quotes I found from Wikipedia under "Definition of terrorism" (and yes, I know Wikipedia is unreliable, but I doubt anyone could screw this up):

Under the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, "terrorism" is defined as "...the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).

1a.) Social objective: Maintain the colonists' boycott of imported tea.
1b.) Political objective: The roots of the boycott ultimately derive from anger over British decisions on taxing the colonies despite a lack of colonial representation in the Westminster Parliament.
2.) Targets: The British government
3.) Tactics: Unlawful use of force against the property of the East India Company; Intimidation of the first mates of each ship; Destruction of a padlock
Result: Terrorism

The Federal Regulations are not exactly the law (as I understand it, bu I'm not a lawyer), but they are the detailed and considered interpretations arrived at by the Executive agencies on how they interpret the law in order to enforce it.

And the USA PATRIOT Act says that terrorism consists of "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."

See my above itemization regarding the Boston Tea Party, and note that someone could have fallen overboard or been hit by a wayward box of tea, making these "acts dangerous to human life". If a Boston Tea Partier had been so charged, would the charge stand up in court today? Maybe not. But the loose definition is an opportunity for political shenanigans.

The main point is it generates large levels of fear in the general population, forcing the government to give in to the terrorist's demands because of pressure from the plebs.
Yes! Andrew I agree with you. I think that this is a good start for a legal definition. Unfortunately that "fear" part is missing from most of our legal definitions.

However, the United States Department of Defense has a definition which at least approaches what you're saying: the "calculated use of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

In this case, the Boston Tea Party was not terrorism. It wasn't really violent, nor was it promoting fear. It was a direct action protest in support of a widely-supported boycott.

I don't see how armed rebellion can be seen as terrorism.
That may be so, but remember that the word "terrorism" is so emotionally charged, I expect most governments would use it against an armed rebellion. And in the case of the Boston Tea Party, this happened in 1773, a couple of years before open armed conflict.
 
Ah... that's not actually what it says.

The U.S. legal definition of terrorism is contained in Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d) which states: "The term terrorism means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience." The act contains a footnote explaining that noncombatant targets includes "military personnel who at the time of the incident are unarmed and/or not on duty."


If you're a subnational group or clandestine agent, and carry out an act of violence against noncombatants (including unarmed/off-duty military personnel) you're a terrorist.

I'm not sure what is meant by "subnational group", but this is the definition for an act of terrorism, not a terrorist. Members of Al Qaeda, for example, are actually legal combatants - they carry arms openly and operate under a military command structure. Yet they are still defined as a terrorist organisation, because they carry out terrorist attacks.

Personally I find the US definition of "terrorism" to be too narrow. Firstly, national military forces are just as capable of carrying out acts of terrorism. Secondly, acts of terrorism can still technically be carried out against on-duty soldiers.

I'll stick with the international definition...
Yeah, I'm afraid that is indeed what it says, and how it's being used.

Anyone who commits a terroristic act, by this definition, is a terrorist as far as the US is concerned.

Hamas is a "subnational group" because it is not the national military of any nation. Because it carries out military actions, it is on the USA's official list of "terrorist organizations".

We have decided that only national governments, using uniformed regular military, may engage in war. All others are terrorists.

The Bush administration's argument that the detainees in Gitmo do not deserve Geneva Convention protections or US Constitutional protections rests largely on their classification as "unlawful combatants". They were captured without uniforms. (Or turned in for cash by bounty hunters, without uniforms.)

If Geneva Convention protections were recognized, they couldn't legally torture them. If Constitutional protections were recognized, they would have a much harder time making their argument against habeas corpus rights stick: They don't deserve the right to be actually charged and tried for terrorism, because they don't have rights, because they're terrorists.

It really is that wacky over here. I'm serious, this is what's happening, and it's very, very disturbing.
 
Btw, G-K-4 is right to point out that there are various definitions in play. I cite the federal code because it is a central justification for some of the most eggregious policies currently in force, or being argued by the administration before the courts.
 
Yeah, I'm afraid that is indeed what it says, and how it's being used.


Well now I am confused... is the text you posted the actual wording of the law? Because the text you posted doesn't say that...


Anyone who commits a terroristic act, by this definition, is a terrorist as far as the US is concerned.

Well yes... terrorist = person who commits terrorist act. That goes without saying. I think the US definition of "terrorist act" is too narrow personally (for one it dictates that it can only be carried out by specific people).



Hamas is a "subnational group" because it is not the national military of any nation. Because it carries out military actions, it is on the USA's official list of "terrorist organizations".


No I think you'll find it's on the US list of terrorist organisations (and other nation's lists too) because they support and carry out terrorist attacks...




We have decided that only national governments, using uniformed regular military, may engage in war. All others are terrorists.

Well, that particular law doesn't say that... but in any event, the Hague Conventions overrule US law, so you guys have no say in the matter...;)



The Bush administration's argument that the detainees in Gitmo do not deserve Geneva Convention protections or US Constitutional protections rests largely on their classification as "unlawful combatants". They were captured without uniforms. (Or turned in for cash by bounty hunters, without uniforms.)


I've never entirely understood the situation there, mainly because you get so much vague BS in the media from journalists who don't know the various laws.

Here's how it legally works:

Any Taliban fighters captured in Afghanistan are regular POWs, and can be detained until the US sees fit to repatriate them. That may be never.

Any Al Qaeda fighters are defined as mercenaries, thus are not combatants, and are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. Basically the US can do what they want with them, because there's no laws for dealing with persons not covered by the specific conventions. (Note, if their status is questionable, they must be treated as a POW until a military tribunal determines their status, what I am referring to is people who DEFINATELY do not fit the categories as per the Geneva Convention)

Torture is illegal, regardless of status - torture is banned by international law full stop, war or otherwise.

Now, my advice to the Bush Administration would be one of two things:

1) Treat them as POWs and repatriate them to Afghanistan who can then try them as criminals and execute them using local justice
2) Treat them as POWs and retain them until such time as the war on Terror ends and the POWs demonstrate they have abandoned their ideology (German POWs were only repatriated after WW2 once they had been "de-Nazi-ified").

Of course option 2 means keeping them forever. Fine.

The only other option is to treat them as criminals and put them on trial, but of course the US Justice system has denied the US Government the right to do this? (least that's how I heard it???)

It is rather a mess for them. They should have gone into Afghanistan with the mind set of war, not capturing criminals.

-Andrew
 
Oliver:
No contradiction if read carefully. I said 'the Americas', as in both North and South America. In other words, stay out of our HEMISPHERE.

Not that we had the military might to back this up.....but Britain did.

I was speaking of Americas as continents, not as a nation.


Piggy: Indeed, what you say may be true, we have struggled with security issues before. We weathered Japanese internment camps and the McCarthy era. I think we've gotten steadily better, though. We don't have Muslim Internment camps(Well, for our own citizens in this country...I think we've some lessons to learn from Gitmo coming) and aren't having Senate hearings on Muslim infiltration.

We're getting there. It's oh, so slow. But we're getting there.

If you ask 15 different Americans what it is to be an American, you will receive 20 different answers. We're a mosaic.
 
Oliver:
No contradiction if read carefully. I said 'the Americas', as in both North and South America. In other words, stay out of our HEMISPHERE.
Not that we had the military might to back this up.....but Britain did.
I was speaking of Americas as continents, not as a nation.

Oh yes, there is a contradiction and i read it carefully.
That´s what i mean with my quote of yours: "we told
Europe to stay out of the Americas!!!":

I did not mean: "Stay out of Irak", i did mean: "Stay
out of the middle-east". It´s a ticking time bomb -
...in the heads of these people." That´s a reason
for growing "anti-america-and-anti-israel-thinking".

America should now it better - because of your
description you gave me about your history, ClarsCT.

@Foolmewunz: I did´nt see the connection between
Paris Hilton and a conspiracy, but i would describe
20.000.000 views of some kiddy-conspiracy as
"popular".

BTW: These are some Alexa-Staticstics about LC-Home:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/t...s=&y=p&url=http://www.loosechange911.com/#top

ETA:

PS: Happy birthday from me, too, Andrew. I hope you
had a big party and a lot of fun. :)

Apropos: @Foolmewunz: How was your 57th Birthday?
 
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:D

Thank you Oliver and DT.

Sadly no, my birthday was rather lame. I was on standby for some work and they mucked me around quite a bit. My girlfriend works regualr mon-fri, and I am heading away for this upcoming week and weekend, so it will be another two weeks before I can properly celebrate!

-Andrew
 
Well now I am confused... is the text you posted the actual wording of the law?
Here's the actual wording of that section:
US Code said:
(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group practicing, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.​
So under this definition, the US could deem Lebanon a "terrorist sanctuary" if it so chose.
 
Oliver, I think Alexa says "per million", not "in millions".

Check the following

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=http://www.randi.org

That's the traffic for Randi

Try the following (you can do comparisons)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/t...253A%252F%252Fwww.loosechange911.com%252F#top

This shows that more people in the city of Hong Kong look at the weather page than the entire global users of Loose Change

Here's the comparison between Showtime's Penn & Teller "BS" page and Loose Change:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/t...2525252Fwww.loosechange911.com%2525252525252F

How about..... with a population of 27 mio, and only 50,000 native English speakers, here's the comparison for ICRT(Intl Community Radio in Taipei/Twn). The Loose Change site is back down below this very small site.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/t...osechange911.com%25252525252525252525252F#top

Finally, bear in mind that the above are sort of "marginal" sites. If you want to see how the general public is taking interest in Loose Change, check the National Football League comparison. That wee little blue line at the bottom is LC. It almost doesn't register except for that little blip on 9/11.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/t...osechange911.com%252525252525252525252525252F

By the way, there are more than 25,000 other sites more popular than Loose Change. (Randi is about # 20,000 and the NFL is about 800.... just to give you some perspective.)

ETA: Thanks for the link, though... I hadn't remembered where to do the neat comparisons.
 
Well yes... terrorist = person who commits terrorist act. That goes without saying. I think the US definition of "terrorist act" is too narrow personally (for one it dictates that it can only be carried out by specific people).
That's because we're only pissed off at specific people. Btw, I'm not defending this policy, just trying to give you a feeling for what's going on over here.

No I think you'll find it's on the US list of terrorist organisations (and other nation's lists too) because they support and carry out terrorist attacks...
Yes, but they would be on our list even if they didn't. Their participation in the recent Israel-Lebanon war would be enough, because they are a subnational group, or as Condi likes to say "a state within a state". Nevermind that the US actively supports local militias in Iraq which operate outside the central government's control, and which are involved in actions which kill and maim noncombatants.

Well, that particular law doesn't say that
It doesn't use those words, but that is the inevitable conclusion. If a subnational/irregular group is involved in a war -- because all war is political violence -- then we're free to classify them as terrorists.

... but in any event, the Hague Conventions overrule US law, so you guys have no say in the matter...
That's certainly not the position of this administration. Hague Conventions are an international agreement among sovereign states. If we don't like it, we can choose not to agree. It's that simple. What're you gonna do -- bomb us?

I've never entirely understood the situation there, mainly because you get so much vague BS in the media from journalists who don't know the various laws.
Tell me about it. Plus, some media outlets are active shills for the administration.


Here's how it legally works:

Any Taliban fighters captured in Afghanistan are regular POWs, and can be detained until the US sees fit to repatriate them. That may be never.
Not so. The administration has held all along that these are not POWs, and so are not covered by the Geneva convention. They are "unlawful combatants" and we have no obligation to repatriate them anywhere, ever. That's how it "legally works" here. We are not obliged to abide by international law, except as our own laws so stipulate (e.g. trade agreements).

Again, I'm not defending this, but I'm telling you, this is what's going on. I'm not making this ◊◊◊◊ up.


Note, if their status is questionable, they must be treated as a POW until a military tribunal determines their status, what I am referring to is people who DEFINATELY do not fit the categories as per the Geneva Convention
The US reserves the right to determine who has questionable status and who doesn't. And this administration has no questions about the Gitmo detainees.

Torture is illegal, regardless of status - torture is banned by international law full stop, war or otherwise.
Again, from the administration's point of view, "international law" is not binding, except as it agrees with national law. There is no authority higher than the sovereign nation. All international agreements are at will.

Treat them as POWs and retain them until such time as the war on Terror ends and the POWs demonstrate they have abandoned their ideology (German POWs were only repatriated after WW2 once they had been "de-Nazi-ified").

Of course option 2 means keeping them forever. Fine.
No, this is not fine. Despite Bush's twisted interpretation of the law, all persons in US jurisdiction have some basic rights. Habeas corpus is not specifically listed but has long been upheld by the courts as essential.

Each of these people needs some sort of processing to determine who he is, and whether he is actually a POW, or a non-combatant caught up in a sweep. They should not just be warehoused with no due process -- military or civilian -- of any kind. That is tyranny. That is injustice. And this declared-yet-undeclared "war on terror" will never end, and has no boundaries, so where will it stop?

The only other option is to treat them as criminals and put them on trial, but of course the US Justice system has denied the US Government the right to do this? (least that's how I heard it???)
Actually, the courts have given us some hope. Much of this is still working its way through the system, but by and large the judiciary does not appear to be willing to grant Bush the executive powers he craves. SCOTUS recently gave the president a severe blow:

Washington Post said:
High Court Rejects Detainee Tribunals
5 to 3 Ruling Curbs President's Claim Of Wartime Power

By Charles Lane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 30, 2006; Page A01

The Supreme Court yesterday struck down the military commissions President Bush established to try suspected members of al-Qaeda, emphatically rejecting a signature Bush anti-terrorism measure and the broad assertion of executive power upon which the president had based it.

Brushing aside administration pleas not to second-guess the commander in chief during wartime, a five-justice majority ruled that the commissions, which were outlined by Bush in a military order on Nov. 13, 2001, were neither authorized by federal law nor required by military necessity, and ran afoul of the Geneva Conventions.

It's the separation of powers thing. As you see, SCOTUS does not have the same view of international agreements as the administration does, thank God.
 
:D Thank you Oliver and DT.

Sadly no, my birthday was rather lame. I was on standby for some work and they mucked me around quite a bit. My girlfriend works regualr mon-fri, and I am heading away for this upcoming week and weekend, so it will be another two weeks before I can properly celebrate!

-Andrew

Never mind, my bithday was just a small party
with my familiy. I´m not that type of Party-guy
for every single B-Day. How old did you get?

@Foolmewunz: You got me, i´ve read "in million".
Maybe they watched the movie for themselfes
20.000.000 times because they could´nt believe
for their own, how much stupidity it contains - or
was that number propaganda? - i don´t find the
initial source of that statement, but the media told
this several times.
 
That's because we're only pissed off at specific people. Btw, I'm not defending this policy, just trying to give you a feeling for what's going on over here.


Of course. :) Thanks for all the valuable info you have been giving. I think it's pretty clear you DON'T agree with this policy. :)



That's certainly not the position of this administration. Hague Conventions are an international agreement among sovereign states. If we don't like it, we can choose not to agree. It's that simple. What're you gonna do -- bomb us?


I understand the US Admin's POV. I am merely presenting the ACTUAL law, for your consideration. :) My comments, I suppose, are directed at the US Government, not you. :)

The Hague Conventions are not an international agreement. They are international law. As a signatory to them, the US is required to abide by them. And yes, obviously no one is going to *make* the US follow given laws. But that will change. The US will not be a superpower forever.



Not so. The administration has held all along that these are not POWs, and so are not covered by the Geneva convention.

Well, I don't know who is being held. If they are only Al Qaeda members, they are right. If they are Taleban aswell, they are wrong. POWs are defined by international law, not the whim of a given government. :)


They are "unlawful combatants" and we have no obligation to repatriate them anywhere, ever. That's how it "legally works" here. We are not obliged to abide by international law, except as our own laws so stipulate (e.g. trade agreements).

Again, here they are wrong. You sign an international law, you have to abide by it. Simple as that. Again, you're quite right, who is going to stop them?


No, this is not fine. Despite Bush's twisted interpretation of the law, all persons in US jurisdiction have some basic rights. Habeas corpus is not specifically listed but has long been upheld by the courts as essential.

It's irrelevant in the case of a POW, however. A POW has not been "imprisoned". They have been detained. There is a significant difference. A POW has committed no crimes, and they are serving no sentence. They are held purely because they pose a potential threat to the holding nation. As long as they continue to pose a potential threat (i.e. as long as their side is still fighting) the holding power may detain them. Some German POWs in the UK were not repatriated until many years after WW2 ended - one individual is STILL technically a POW.



Each of these people needs some sort of processing to determine who he is, and whether he is actually a POW, or a non-combatant caught up in a sweep.


I agree. But of course we don't KNOW that that hasn't happened. Such processing occurs BEFORE the person receives POW status. Certainly it might NOT have happened, in which case, absolutely, they need to be processed. But all the examples I have heard of seem pretty open and shut. They are combatants (illegal or otherwise).



They should not just be warehoused with no due process -- military or civilian -- of any kind.


Again, if they are POWs they have done nothing criminal, therefore there is no "due process" to be concerned about. You are not charging them with anything. Due process would only apply if you were charging a POW with a civil crime - for example if they killed someone in an escape attempt you'd charge them with murder.

It's a tricky one because POWs are not "prisoners" in the normal sense of the word. They are sort of stuck in a "limbo" state. This is fine if the war only lasts a few years. If the war is constantly ongoing it becomes a major problem.

To my mind, the mess in Guantanamo was inevitable, given the changing nature of warfare. It just happened that the US hit the obstacle first. The problem with these detainees is as much a problem with the Laws of War as anything else.

They are obsolete. They are laws written for a type of warfare that no longer exists. They need to be redefined. They need to be redrawn.

In addition international law needs to deal with terrorism. Previously terrorism was considered a "crime", and terrorists "criminals". The modern face of terrorism does not fit easily into this niche. Militant Islamic Terrorists are undertaking a (or various) wars.

New international laws are needed, all round. (I recommend an international prison on the moon...;) )

-Andrew
 
Hi, gumboot. I think we agree on most of this. And I think we eacj understand where the other is coming from.

However, just a few clarifications regarding the situation in the US....

Piggy said:
Each of these people needs some sort of processing to determine who he is, and whether he is actually a POW, or a non-combatant caught up in a sweep.
I agree. But of course we don't KNOW that that hasn't happened. Such processing occurs BEFORE the person receives POW status.
Actually, we know that it hasn't happened because the administration is responsible for such processing and it is the expressed position of the administration that it needs to do no such thing. According to the White House, the executive reserves the right to declare detainees "enemy combatants" and deny them POW status at its own discretion.

And if it does happen, it's not enough for it to happen secretly. It's not enough for the executive or the military to say "We processed them... trust us."

To my mind, the mess in Guantanamo was inevitable, given the changing nature of warfare. It just happened that the US hit the obstacle first. The problem with these detainees is as much a problem with the Laws of War as anything else.
It was not inevitable at all. It is the direct result of the attempt to assert absolute power by the executive, to remove checks and balances against that power, and to assert US hegemony internationally.

It is the result of going into Iraq and offering cash bounties to anyone who could drag someone in and accuse the dragee of being a Baathist terrorist, for example.

I'm not sure you comprehend the scope of the administration's claims. They have argued in open court that the US has the right to imprison anyone they can manage to get their hands on anywhere in the world, and detain them without charge and without any rights, on mere suspicion of aiding terrorists, even if they didn't know they were aiding them. In other words, if they have information we want, and we can get to them, they're ours.

In response to this argument, a federal judge asked an administration lawyer the now-famous "little old lady" question. He asked, if there were a "little old lady in Switzerland" who donated to a charity, and unbeknownst to her this charity were funneling money to a suspected terrorist group, then under the administration's theory, would the US have the right to detain her indefinitely? The answer was yes -- if the US felt she could provide some information to help the war on terror, then yes.

Same for a teenage boy conscripted to work in the kitchen of a training camp. He has no rights either.

This is extremely dangerous doctrine. And that's why we need to have meaningful oversight and due process. No secret prisons, no torture, no detention without rights, no secret evidence.
 
Actually, we know that it hasn't happened because the administration is responsible for such processing


I'm talking about the processing of fighters caught in Afghanistan by the military. The CIA abductions are another story entirely. People captured by the military during a war are processed by the military at the time of capture.



It was not inevitable at all. It is the direct result of the attempt to assert absolute power by the executive, to remove checks and balances against that power, and to assert US hegemony internationally.


Try look at the big picture. It isn't all about the USA. Yes, this was inevitable. Warfare has changed. The rules are nolonger useful for the way modern war is fought. The US is meeting that obstacle with the prisoners captured in Afghanistan and Iraq (again, the CIA abduction thing is a WHOLE different issue). Israel ran into it with their bombing campaigns in Lebanon. Most of the public turn a blind eye to it, but the armed forces of the world have been dealing with the problem to varying degrees for several decades.

It has nothing to do with removing checks and balances. It has nothing to do with your particular government, corrupt or otherwise. It has nothing to do with a US hegemony (and GOD I get annoyed at how badly that word is used these days!). It has to do with the way in which warfare is fought, and the laws that govern warfare.

POWs are only a tiny facet of the problem.

And yes, the bumbling actions of the US Government, in trying to recover from 9/11 and demonstrate they're "on the case" have only made things much much worse.

But focusing on the "ebil gubmint of the US of A" only detracts from a far greater global issue that MUST be resolved. How are we going to fight wars in future? Because there will be wars. I guarantee it.

Certainly, I think we need to ensure innocents are not deprived rights. Absolutely. As war encroaches more into civilian areas, it becomes MORE important to minimise the damage to civilian life and property. Absolutely.

But that on it's own is not enough. It's like saying "we need to stop hurting the environment". If conventional war no longer works, we need to work out how we CAN fight this new form of warfare. What CAN be done to deal with the new threats? It's not enough to demand it NOT be done a certain way.

-Andrew

ETA. And I agree, we completely get where each other is coming from. :) Obviously, given I am not an American, the actions of your government don't really matter as much to me. :) Certainly they need to be brought to heel (I think 2008 will settle it, if not sooner!). But on a greater scale, this problem is only going to repeat itself in multiple countries if some basic principles aren't hammered out.
 
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I'm talking about the processing of fighters caught in Afghanistan by the military. The CIA abductions are another story entirely. People captured by the military during a war are processed by the military at the time of capture.
I wish it were another story entirely. They're all being warehoused. It's true that members of opposing armed forces captured during wartime are POWs. But what's happening now, in Afghanistan as well as Iraq, is that people are being swept up, shipped out, and warehoused. No discernable, verifiable effort is being made to differentiate the Taliban fighter from the conscripted teenager in the cook's tent. We have no way of knowing who these people are or what's happening to them.

Try look at the big picture. It isn't all about the USA. Yes, this was inevitable. Warfare has changed.
It depends on what you mean by "this". Gitmo and the secret prisons were not at all inevitable, and I'm talking about Gitmo and the secret prisons.

Big picture be damned. Try telling the families of the boys who were hauled off by the Taliban, and then taken away overseas to be stuck in some hole and possibly tortured with no review of their cases and no rights at all, to look at the big picture.

Yes, military procedure and jurisprudence need to be revised from time to time as the world changes.

But no, the current situation was in no way inevitable. It is dangerous, it is immoral.
 
It's not enough to demand it NOT be done a certain way.
I've already mentioned a couple of things that need to be done. First, processing must be performed -- not delayed indefinitely -- and it must be done with oversight, not in secret. There must be some review for requests of habeas corpus at a minimum.

Congress has made specific recommendations in this regard, as have military judge advocates general. But these are being resisted by the executive in favor of a policy of central authority without lateral oversight.
 
I wish it were another story entirely. They're all being warehoused. It's true that members of opposing armed forces captured during wartime are POWs. But what's happening now, in Afghanistan as well as Iraq, is that people are being swept up, shipped out, and warehoused. No discernable, verifiable effort is being made to differentiate the Taliban fighter from the conscripted teenager in the cook's tent. We have no way of knowing who these people are or what's happening to them.


It depends on what you mean by "this". Gitmo and the secret prisons were not at all inevitable, and I'm talking about Gitmo and the secret prisons.

Big picture be damned. Try telling the families of the boys who were hauled off by the Taliban, and then taken away overseas to be stuck in some hole and possibly tortured with no review of their cases and no rights at all, to look at the big picture.

Yes, military procedure and jurisprudence need to be revised from time to time as the world changes.

But no, the current situation was in no way inevitable. It is dangerous, it is immoral.

My words ... in a much better english. Thank you, Piggy.
 
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