Conservative Wins Mexico Election

[mumblethrax]

2.) It is damning to Mexico that such a comparison should even be made.

It's damning of Mexico that if they were to enact a draconian policy that an American suggests, they then might be unfavorably compared to the former Soviet bloc?

Huh.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If the new Mexican government wants to do something about the Mexicans crossing the border to the US, wouldn't it be to prevent illegal emigration?

Uh... no. Because As far as I know, Mexico has no laws against emigration. Other than special cases, of course, such as jumping bail.

Are you clear? Now, I'm not sure how you failed to grasp those two fairly simply points but could I ask you to do me a favor? Don't try and speak for me, ok? I won't insult you while flubbing your views if you don't do it to me. That's a fair request, don't ya think?

Was speaking for you
Wasn't trying to insult you
Insulting me while complaining about being insulted= a bit hypocritical

 

[empeake]

Mexico's problems are not about anything as simple left v. right politics.

Never said they were. I simply stated that major changes to the current Mexican emigration policies, like those that Phrost mentioned, would be unlikely. (I'm assuming Phrost was referring to laws that prohibit or penalize emigration to the USA, not to policies that improve conditions in Mexico to the point that emigration is unnecessary.)

 

[RandFan]

Was speaking for you
Wasn't trying to insult you
Insulting me while complaining about being insulted= a bit hypocritical

If you didn't mean to insult me then I appologize. However innocent your intentions where, I found them insulting.

 

[RandFan]

It's damning of Mexico that if they were to enact a draconian policy that an American suggests, they then might be unfavorably compared to the former Soviet bloc?

There is more than one way to be damned sir. That is not the way that I was meaning.

It's disgraceful that your citizens want to leave. It's disgraceful when conditions are so bad that your citizens risk death to leave. In that way Mexico is quite comparable. It is damnable.

ETA: "Your" is a figure of speech. I mean Mexico.

 

[RandFan]

Never said they were. I simply stated that major changes to the current Mexican emigration policies, like those that Phrost mentioned, would be unlikely. (I'm assuming Phrost was referring to laws that prohibit or penalize emigration to the USA, not to policies that improve conditions in Mexico to the point that emigration is unnecessary.)

Understood.

 

[Bjorn]

If the new Mexican government wants to do something about the Mexicans crossing the border to the US, wouldn't it be to prevent illegal emigration?

Uh... no. Because As far as I know, Mexico has no laws against emigration. Other than special cases, of course, such as jumping bail.

OK, no laws against emigration (to prevent people from crossing the border to the US).

What would the Mexican laws be about, then? The question here was what do you do to prevent your people from leaving the country.

 

[RandFan]

...if they were to enact a draconian policy that an American suggests...

I don't think that is a fact in evidence at the moment. I don't read it that way. I can't speak for Prohst. I don't think anyone esle should either.

 

[RandFan]

What would the Mexican laws be about, then? The question here was what do you do to prevent your people from leaving the country.

Ooooh, oooh, I've got some great ideas. Weed out corruption. Make it easier for entrepenuers to start businesses and make a profit.

Social Entrepreneurs and Globalization
What Underlies Mexican Entrepreneurship?
by Ernesto Zedillo,
former president of Mexico.

Historically, this lesson is clear: economic growth reduces poverty more than anything else, and a flourishing private sector is a key contributor to sustained economic growth. Why then, considering the urgent need to lift billions of people out of poverty, has entrepreneurship not been unleashed to its full potential in many parts of the developing world?

The answer, of course, is not that there are no entrepreneurs in poor countries. In fact, the release of entrepreneurial activity previously repressed or dormant is an important part of the recent success stories of rapid growth and poverty alleviation. Furthermore, even in countries where growth has stagnated and poverty has risen in the last two decades, millions of men and women keep their families from starving to death only through the entrepreneurial activities they undertake--albeit very precariously--every day.
Go to any shantytown or village in a developing country and you'll find small entrepreneurs working hard to provide for their families' subsistence. As useful as this version of the private sector--usually known as the informal economy--is in providing some employment and income to large masses of people, it isn't enough to defeat their poverty. As Hernando de Soto, the Peruvian economist, has lucidly and frequently explained, informal businesses are constrained to operate in very small markets, usually the local community; consequently they are unable to reap the rewards of productivity and competitiveness that stem from economic specialization in the wider marketplace. Typically, the poorer a country is, the bigger the proportion of its overall economy will be held by its informal economy.

 

[mumblethrax]

American citizens want to leave, too. Often for the same reasons most Mexican citizens do: economic opportunity.

If Mexico enacted optimal economic policies tomorrow, there would still be a tremendous wealth differential between the US and Mexico, and therefore emigration. Simply put, there's not a lot Mexico can do about the laws of supply and demand. It's hardly disgraceful that the Mexico exists in the real world.

 

[RandFan]

American citizens want to leave, too. Often for the same reasons most Mexican citizens do: economic opportunity.

If Mexico enacted optimal economic policies tomorrow, there would still be a tremendous wealth differential between the US and Mexico, and therefore emigration. Simply put, there's not a lot Mexico can do about the laws of supply and demand. It's hardly disgraceful that the Mexico exists in the real world.

There is no question that so long as an imbalance exists there will be immigration to America. That is not the point. The point is the stark difference between the two nations. An illegal immigrant working in America for less than minimum wage can make far more than in Mexico. Mexican corruption and regulation are stifling to it's citizens. In Mexico's case poverty didn't just happen. What is disgraceful is that Mexico has oppresive regulations and corrupt officials that require bribes and kickbacks which makes it difficut to start new business.

That's damnable.

 

[RandFan]

Chief Impediments to Entrepreneurship
Ernesto Zedillo,
former president of Mexico.

In many developing countries the private sector fails to rise to its potential in creating wealth because property rights aren't well protected and government regulation of businesses is excessive. As a rule, to legally incorporate a business in a poor country, a person must complete a labyrinthine series of steps, which consumes a great deal of time and money. The red tape is usually even worse if the aim is to receive legal title to a piece of land. Inability to register a business or property is what most commonly keeps people in the informal sector of the economy.

Lack of legal status and title to property keep entrepreneurs marginalized from, among other things, credit institutions and protection by the justice system. Contrary to popular belief, poor people do accumulate assets. But because the rights to these assets are not legally defined, they cannot be used as collateral for bank loans or as any form of capital useful in establishing and expanding a formal business. As De Soto has said, one of the biggest political challenges facing developing countries is to bring the assets of the extralegal sector into a more inclusive legal property system in which they can become more productive and generate capital for their owners.

It's a good read.

 

[Bjorn]

Ooooh, oooh, I've got some great ideas. Weed out corruption. Make it easier for entrepenuers to start businesses and make a profit.

And I'm all for those.

However, the question here was more like

"So since he's conservative, does that mean he'll try to stop his citizens from illegally entering the US, or is that a bi-lateral sort of unwritten Mexican government policy?"

Which, as far as I can see, brings us back to the question about making laws making it illegal to try to leave your own country.

 

[RandFan]

And I'm all for those.

However, the question here was more like

"So since he's conservative, does that mean he'll try to stop his citizens from illegally entering the US, or is that a bi-lateral sort of unwritten Mexican government policy?"

Which, as far as I can see, brings us back to the question about making laws making it illegal to try to leave your own country.

I can't speak for Phrost. It certainly is in their best interest to get their citizens to America. Remittance is one of Mexico's largest sources of income. So I can't imagine they would ever do anything to stop it. That being said your question is a fair one.

If Mexico (the leaders) felt a responsibility to reduce illegal immigration what would the do stop it's citizens from leaving? We'll certainly they wouldn't need to resort to East German tactics. That would be a non-sequitur since they could easily allow legal immigration while reducing illegal immigration.

Along with my suggestions which I think are reasonable and significant they could track coyotes and arrest them. The coyotes exploit Mexican citizens. This would seem a reasonable response. I'm guessing that there others.

 

[mumblethrax]

What is disgraceful is that Mexico has oppresive regulations and corrupt officials that require bribes and kickbacks which makes it difficut to start new business.

That's damnable.

It's also completely removed from what was being discussed.

 

[Mephisto]

For the past six years, Mexico's government has been conservative. Radical changes in foreign and immigration policies are highly unlikely. Also, the house of representatives, senate and country in general are polarized about 35%-35%-30% between the right, left, and center, respectively.

I heard that the Conservative candidate is proposing that Mexico "stay the course" as far as illegal immigration to the U.S. goes - a blatant disregard of the problem at the source, whereas the liberal candidate (Obregon) was proposing broad social programs and sweeping changes in industry and agriculture that would entice Mexican citizens to stay home.

I was wondering, since you're in a great position to know - does the Mexican conservative party chain themselves to a crucifix or a Bible the way they have in the U.S; or do they just wave the flag more fervently?

 

[BPSCG]

I was wondering, since you're in a great position to know - does the Mexican conservative party chain themselves to a crucifix or a Bible the way they have in the U.S; or do they just wave the flag more fervently?

Congratulations on winning the "Well-Poisoner of the Week" award.

 

[Mephisto]

Congratulations on winning the "Well-Poisoner of the Week" award.

Why thank you - I'm very good at poisoning wells. Don't you know that's how cattlemen in the southwest got rid of their hated rivals, the sheep herders? I wonder if you could explain the difference between "poisoning the well" and "swiftboating a person?"

I think it's a valid question, especially since Bush carried the Hispanic vote here because he carried the Anti-abortion torch and many Hispanics are devout Catholics. Just wondering if Conservatives down south are paying attention to their cousins up north.

 

[Snide]

If you didn't mean to insult me then I appologize. However innocent your intentions where, I found them insulting.

Sorry to butt in, but any reasonable person would have found Art's "albeit poorly" comment insulting.

 

[RandFan]

It's also completely removed from what was being discussed.

No it's not.