Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

[lomiller]

I think you may mistake some of those "deniers" as people that understand the issue on a deeper level. I think the mistake can be made in saying there is no such thing as climate change. However, the disagreements seem to be about how much human created co2 gases influence our temperatures, and for how long. Not that they do or don't.

The science is very clear on both climate change, and how much of it is caused by humans. Mainstream Republican position on climate change are pure pseudoscience that cannot be supported by the scientific literature, this includes “questions” about how much is caused by human actions.

 

[Mumbles]

No one has opinions on Owens? Very intelligent lady.

As always, any black person who goes to right-wing places and yammers about the "democrat plantation" is a grifter.

Not that I have a major problem with it. Y'all are the marks, you've been told that enough times.

(And it goes double for Owens, who only turned that way after her doxxing website collapsed, as I recall...)

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not familiar with Harris but I'm going to do some youtube browsing in a bit. That is one of the reasons I made the post, to discover some of the views and opinions of others here that may think differently than myself.

Harris is a well known and respected neuroscientist and atheist. Has written many books. Highly recommend End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation and The Moral Landscape. He doesn't pull punches. He is highly critical of political correctness, the left and the right.

There are lots of clips of Harris on YouTube

 

[Upchurch]

I think you may mistake some of those "deniers" as people that understand the issue on a deeper level. I think the mistake can be made in saying there is no such thing as climate change. However, the disagreements seem to be about how much human created co2 gases influence our temperatures, and for how long. Not that they do or don't.

Actual Republican Senator on the actual Senate floor actually denying climate change:


It doesn't really matter that he doesn't have any actual understanding of the issue, he's a Senator with all the legislative power that comes with the position and representing at least some, if not most, Republicans on the issue.

Plus, there's Trump's China hoax hypothesis.

 

[Cabbage]

Dialogue is important. Especially so with those you disagree with. I'd like to see a lot more of this, and a lot less "protesting" against ideas or things we disagree with. One has a much more profound effect than the other, and has a lot less chance of ending you up in a cell for being in wrong place at the wrong time.

One of the things you nailed is it's getting to be a blurred line or rather -- the extreme elements of both sides are becoming more alike then different. The word liberal used to mean something completely different 10 years ago to what is associated with the term today as well. The same can be said for the term conservative.

But for many issues honest dialogue seems difficult if not impossible--One side refuses to listen because they won't even acknowledge there's a problem. Black Lives Matter is one such example, I think.

In such a case when dialogue isn't working: What, other than protest, would you suggest ?

 

[Minoosh]

In 1988, a presidential election year, Democrats joined a unanimous vote to confirm Reagan appointee Anthony Kennedy to the Supreme Court.

In 2015, more than a year before a presidential election, Republicans unanimously vowed to refuse considering any Obama SC appointee at all.

In 2006, Republican Mitt Romney shepherded a universal health care bill through the Democratic Massachusetts legislature. In 2008, Republicans unanimously vowed to block any Democratic ideas on health-care reform.

In 2009, Sen. John McCain explained the utter lack of GOP support for Obama's stimulus package was largely due to its conflict with balancing the budget. In 2017, he supported a GOP stimulus/tax relief plan that would substantially increase the federal deficit.

I suspect you'll find any leftward trend on this forum to be accentuated by (what seems to me) a decline in the level of discourse by conservative members of this forum, some of whom have rejected evidence-base argument completely in favor of potshots, innuendo and extreme tribalism.

Even McCain was despised as a RINO, because he did not quite fall into line on repealing the ACA, which the Republicans had done nothing to replace despite vowing to do so for 7 years, not helped by the 2010 teabag wave that further vilified (if possible) the Democratic Party. Despite his later annoyance with the Tea Party, McCain largely enabled it, stating the GOP wasn't the part of "no" - it was the party of "hell no." Though I respected McCain a lot, he was mainly just as obstructionist as the rest of his party.

Maybe it's a chicken-egg thing, but it seems to me if "conservatives" on the forum abandoned all pretense of critical thinking, there is not much call to cite conservative intellectuals, who, naturally, are vilified as RINOS.

YMMV.

 

[Mumbles]

But for many issues honest dialogue seems difficult if not impossible--One side refuses to listen because they won't even acknowledge there's a problem. Black Lives Matter is one such example, I think.

In such a case when dialogue isn't working: What, other than protest, would you suggest ?

RE: Black Lives Matter, the problem isn't so much that right wingers refuse to acknowledge that there's *a* problem, it's that they insist that "the problem" is that black people who give interviews, sit in a park, walk home from a store, get a license that a cop asked them to get, must be murderous brutes who need to be put down by gunfire by heroic white men.

IOW, standard white supremacism first seen shortly after the end of slavery. Which is why I wrote what I did in my first post in this thread. Still, there's no possible way to have a discussion with a person who would rush to justify and celebrate if you were killed at random.

 

[The Shrike]

I don't know what right and left mean anymore. Should these terms not be understood as a gradient of acceptance to societal change?

A. I'm downright radical about some things. For example, I'm quite interested in ecological sustainability. Related to this, I'd like to see a complete redesign of energy capture and delivery. I'd like to explore different models of food production and dietary incentives to change human behaviors. I'd prefer a steady state economy in which growth is de-emphasized and stability is rewarded.

B. On other issues I'm no more left-leaning than your average Roosevelt: The United States should be a preeminent military superpower, but we should also invest in protecting things solely for their cultural or aesthetic value, and we thrive as a people when our social safety nets provide comfort and dignity to the poor and suffering.

C. I'm a fan of balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility. I'm a fan of the US Constitution. I am a strong supporter of freedom of speech, a free press, separation of Church and State, the well-regulated right to bear arms, the checks and balances of the three branches of gov't. These things should be right-leaning qualities, no? And yet . . .
*it was Clinton who last delivered a government budget surplus
*Obama's 1st term was consumed with digging out from the hole Bush left him
*I'm a "liberal" for supporting NFL players' right to peaceful protest
*I'm a "liberal" for defending the press against attacks from the White House
*I'm a "liberal" for striving to keep religion out of our government
*I'm a "liberal" for my common sense interpretation of the 2nd Amendment
*I'm a "liberal" for expressing my concern that a foreign enemy has interfered with our most recent Presidential election, probably resulting in a compromised crime boss taking the reins of this nation, and that this man on a near daily basis craps all over said Constitution.

So, there is evidence to label me a leftist in A. That evidence is pretty shaky in B. The evidence in C should label me a conservative. If it doesn't that's not me moving left, that's some elements of society deciding that things that used to be right are now left.

 

[abaddon]

"Candace Owens, who said Blacks should not be concerned about the resurgence of White Nationalism. Candace Owens whored herself out to Trump a long time ago. She is held in zero regard by the black community for good reason. She is one of the House N Words for the far right."
-- dudalb (Aug 6, 2018)

It happens that I am not an American, Nor an American voter. I have the blessing of several thousands of miles away.

Thus I have the ability to step back and mock from afar. And boy, Trumpistas are really easy targets.

You seem to be some form of poe, but in the event that you are not a poe...America died.

You have somehow gone from world leader to self parody.Without even blinking.

I want the America that accomplished the moon landings. Not the America that so eviscerated it's own space program that they have to rent seats from the Russians.

 

[Donal]

No one has opinions on Owens? Very intelligent lady.

Smart enough to get people the think she's a conservative

 

[Upchurch]

I think, rather, this forum is historically not right-leaning, given that things like intelligent design and climate change denial are right-leaning.

That being said, the forum is anti-anti-vax as well, which is roughly considered a left-leaning issue. It just doesn't get as much play in the US Politics forum because there aren't really anti-vax proponents in upper government positions.

 

[acbytesla]

That being said, the forum is anti-anti-vax as well, which is roughly considered a left-leaning issue. It just doesn't get as much play in the US Politics forum because there aren't really anti-vax proponents in upper government positions.

How do you conclude that the forum is anti-vaccination? I also wouldn't say it is a left leaning issue...just more of a stupid leaning issue. I know people that are liberal and conservative that believe that nonsense. This is one of the big problems of today's reality. It's that a confident one sided presentation that also suggests of some kind of conspiracy is often convincing. I'm very much afraid people fail miserably at critical thinking. That doesn't mean they are stupid and slow, just that they haven't been taught critical thinking skills that teach how to approach and chalkenge a claim.

 

[Trebuchet]

That being said, the forum is anti-anti-vax as well, which is roughly considered a left-leaning issue. It just doesn't get as much play in the US Politics forum because there aren't really anti-vax proponents in upper government positions.

How do you conclude that the forum is anti-vaccination? I also wouldn't say it is a left leaning issue...just more of a stupid leaning issue. I know people that are liberal and conservative that believe that nonsense. This is one of the big problems of today's reality. It's that a confident one sided presentation that also suggests of some kind of conspiracy is often convincing. I'm very much afraid people fail miserably at critical thinking. That doesn't mean they are stupid and slow, just that they haven't been taught critical thinking skills that teach how to approach and chalkenge a claim.

You missed an "anti" there. I don't agree that it's a left-leaning issue, however, it seems to attract idiots of all stripes. Including Donald Trump, and Michele Bachmann who claimed a teen got the HPV vaccine and immediately became retarded.

 

[Craig4]

I suspected this may be a silly exercise in civility, but I'm curious what many here seem to think of other "conservative" voices out there. Examples like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Larry Elder, Ben Carson, Clarance Thomas, Rand Paul, Trey Gowdy, Condoleezza Rice? This forum seems to be very left leaning. I remember it being more about critical thinking in the past.

You have to draw a distinction between conservatism and just being anti Trump. Being anti Trump isn't a left or right issue, it's about being loyal to the country, patriotic and love of nation. You can be conservative and be anti Trump. There are fine conservative voices who represent their movement to be heard and have smart and relevant things to say. George Will, Max Boot, Anna Navarro, Bill Kristol to name a few are conservative voices worthy of listening too.

Once a Republican crosses over into being a Trump supporter, they just aren't good enough to listen to. You can't support Trump and love this country. You can't support Trump and be a patriot. If you engage with Trump Republicans it should be with the goal of damaging them personally and professionally. Paris Dennard should be the template and loyal Americans in a position to should seek to mount their ruined lives and careers over their mantels like hunting trophies.


So yes, there are conservative voices I listen to and read. I just can't be bothered with traitors who would sell us out to a Russian whore.

 

[Upchurch]

You missed an "anti" there. I don't agree that it's a left-leaning issue, however, it seems to attract idiots of all stripes. Including Donald Trump, and Michele Bachmann who claimed a teen got the HPV vaccine and immediately became retarded.

Yes, anti-anti-.

I also agree that it isn't really a left-leaning issue, but it is often perceived as such.

 

[acbytesla]

You missed an "anti" there. I don't agree that it's a left-leaning issue, however, it seems to attract idiots of all stripes. Including Donald Trump, and Michele Bachmann who claimed a teen got the HPV vaccine and immediately became retarded.

Mea culpa.

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

This forum seems to be very left leaning. I remember it being more about critical thinking in the past.

Now I know you’re trolling.

 

[Stacyhs]

You missed an "anti" there. I don't agree that it's a left-leaning issue, however, it seems to attract idiots of all stripes. Including Donald Trump, and Michele Bachmann who claimed a teen got the HPV vaccine and immediately became retarded.

Agreed. The "anti-vac" crowd has idiots from all political views. Michele Bachmann is an idiot of the highest order, surpassed only by Trump.

 

[kellyb]

It is true that some conservatives may find Trump so revolting that they abandon identifying as such. However, the same can be said of the left which has seemingly become all about socialism, and the "progressive" globalist voice. So the right went more right, and the left went more left. Now what?

The democratic party establishment is very much not all about "socialism". But over half of the voter base, the people who read The Nation and Mother Jones, etc are into stuff like single-payer and tuition free college.

The democratic establishment likes to pretend to be on board with all that stuff, too, but they have a pretty terrible recent track record when it comes to fighting for policies the base supports.

What is "the progressive" globalist voice"??? I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

[kellyb]

I would argue that this is objectively not true: with Obama, the Left went into the Center, leaving the GOP no choice but to move Right in order to create enough contrast.
For example, remember that the ACA was a Republican invention, yet once Obama picked it up, it was portrayed as a far-left socialist plot to destroy capitalism.

YEP! And it really started under Clinton and the DLC in the 90's, when Fox happened and hate radio became a thing, but it went into freaky overdrive with Obama.