Belz...
Fiend God
Well, here's what I think about Ben Shapiro: he's an ignorant, arrogant and dishonest asshat.
Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)
- Thread starter River
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Well, here's what I think about Ben Shapiro: he's an ignorant, arrogant and dishonest asshat.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
I think, rather, this forum is historically not right-leaning, given that things like intelligent design and climate change denial are right-leaning.
Cabbage
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If by that you mean present day Republicans snip, edit, and misrepresent quotes to fabricate a narrative out of whole cloth...then yes, I agree!
It's also only left leaning from the far right perspective of American politics.
acbytesla
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I don't even know how you define left and right any more. Massive deficits, tariffs and crony capitalism is hardly what I would call conservative. I thought conservative philosophy was laissez faire and fiscal responsibility. I've never considered myself a leftist or a conservative.
What I am against is the government takeover by the super-wealthy. Where the laws are written by their paid lobbyists for their benefit. Where every day Americans are divided by social issues like abortion and racial and sexual equality all the while the rules of the economy are continually rewritten for the benefit of the very few.
I am sick of the Koch Brothers FOX TV government. How does one explain that the GDP after inflation has quadrupled yet median after inflation wages has been flat since 1975? How does one explain CEO pay rising from 20 times worker pay to 500 to a thousand times worker pay? How does one explain that people like Warren Buffet pay far less of their incomes in taxes then their secretaries?
If you want to discuss the issues critically, I'm more than willing to do that. Let's start with the empirical fact that Trump is a lying con man who has been playing fast and loose with the rules and the law for his own benefit and has often made others pay his bills. If you can't admit that Trump is deceitful, then how can you suggest that others are not thinking critically?
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In that spirit, I read and listen to Sam Harris, who is also "not right-leaning." Of the conservative voices listed in the OP, Sam is friendly with and often debates Ben Shapiro. I'm not a fan, but at least Shapiro gets out there and mixes it up with people who don't share his views.
I think that Condaleezza Rice is amazing, but I've only ever heard her speak once at length.
Rand Paul had a chance to be a principled voice, but like a lot of libertarians, he let me down and it turns out that he's just another opportunist douchebag.
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
Actually I think there are plenty of moderate "swing" voters. The trouble is that it's mostly the "base" of both parties that vote in primaries, and they tend to me more extreme (more so with Republicans, IMO) so centrist candidates have a hard time getting on the general election ballot.
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
Unfortunately, yes. That's what is making being a skeptical fiscal conservative such an uncreasingly lonely position.
River
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One of the things I enjoyed about this post is; it points out something missing in a lot of todays society. That "packaged ideology" seems to be rampant in todays politics. It has always been somewhat this way, but over time I feel like propaganda and agendas have become so powerful that many feel lost without "identifying" as some group or another. Group think. Such a powerful thing, and manipulated to the core.
I personally consider myself to be a conservative libertarian. I tend to lean mostly right on issues, but not far of center. I found it amusing that social media platforms considered me to be a political moderate due to my postings.
River
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I have a hard time reading or watching anything from vice. May as well be Salon. I'm actually not so surprised by the left lean here. After all this forum was founded as the JREF and we all know Randi's preferences in those ways. There seemed to be a larger picture of society here or more varying views in the past. Lately it seems like a lot of those people may have fled for a less echoing place.
For what ever its worth, Ben Shapiro and Jonah Goldberg probably have the most rational reactions to Trump out there. Neither is a fan but both think he's actually advancing conservative policies in a lot of ways. There is a sense among the few remaining conservatives that Trump's rhetoric doesn't usually match his policy.
@Mumbles, I'm curious what evidence you have that Goldberg and the other "grifters" are grifters.
The dems have moved a bit left. 10 years ago, college debt tuition, free college, medicare for all were not mainstream ideas among dems, democratic socialists wouldn't have gotten anywhere in primaries and gay marriage was still debatable among them.
Depending on what your time frame is, the GOP as moved right or not and the Dems have moved left or not. The GOP moved right from the 80s through the 2000s but they're platform has been basically the same since(Trump being a massive outlier in a few areas.) The Dems started moving more left over the last decade or so.
Edit to add, that the "packaged ideologies" don't really seem to be that important to voters these days. As there's lots of evidence that people rather quickly change there minds about things depending on which side they think there side is on. We also tend to forget that we ever changed our minds in the first place. Believing that we've always been at war with East Asia is almost baked into human psychology it seems.
@Mumbles, I'm curious what evidence you have that Goldberg and the other "grifters" are grifters.
The dems have moved a bit left. 10 years ago, college debt tuition, free college, medicare for all were not mainstream ideas among dems, democratic socialists wouldn't have gotten anywhere in primaries and gay marriage was still debatable among them.
Depending on what your time frame is, the GOP as moved right or not and the Dems have moved left or not. The GOP moved right from the 80s through the 2000s but they're platform has been basically the same since(Trump being a massive outlier in a few areas.) The Dems started moving more left over the last decade or so.
Edit to add, that the "packaged ideologies" don't really seem to be that important to voters these days. As there's lots of evidence that people rather quickly change there minds about things depending on which side they think there side is on. We also tend to forget that we ever changed our minds in the first place. Believing that we've always been at war with East Asia is almost baked into human psychology it seems.
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Mumbles
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I'll give him this - like Elder, he's very skilled at a particular style of debate. In fact, it's the same style. Talk quickly, spew out misinformation, flood the area.
You know, the Gish Gallop, taken almost to it's natural conclusion. I mean, you could find an auctioneer or that guy from the Micro Machines commercials when I was a kid.
Mumbles
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I'd take you through a tour of various threads on polie/vigilante attacks on black people minding their own business, to point out both "conservatives" here, as well as on tv and AM radio, doing exactly as I said...
...but given your recent posts in the "new judge" thread, well...you're a part of the problem.
lomiller
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Don’t confuse “to the left of me” with “left leaning”
This implies that you think “critical thinking” means accepting all positions as equally valid. This is more or less the opposite of what critical thinkers should really be doing.
In the 1990’s the Republican party embraced the motion that “perception is reality” as a good way to win elections. What they missed was that it doesn’t just influence what the electorate believes, it influenced what party leadership believes. Over the long term winning elections by saying one thing then “doing the right thing” once elected was never going to work as over time Republican leaders who based their positons on real facts rather then party propaganda have been pushed out of the party.
The result is that mainstream Republicans accept pseudoscientific and counterfactual claims with great regularity. While 30 years ago both sides may have been equally guilty, this just isn’t the case anymore. On many, perhaps most issues the Republican position can’t be supported by science of fact. In the process of abandon fact based, scientifically justifiable positions themselves Republicans allowed mainstream Democrats the option to largely ignore the fringe positions within their own party. This means that while there is still pseudoscience on the left, it doesn’t usually find it’s way into mainstream policy.
The end result is that skeptics and critical thinkers have many opportunities to call out Republican policy ideas and relatively few to call out Democratic policy ideas. This generally places skeptics and critical thinkers on the “left” of most American political debates these days.
River
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Dialogue is important. Especially so with those you disagree with. I'd like to see a lot more of this, and a lot less "protesting" against ideas or things we disagree with. One has a much more profound effect than the other, and has a lot less chance of ending you up in a cell for being in wrong place at the wrong time.
One of the things you nailed is it's getting to be a blurred line or rather -- the extreme elements of both sides are becoming more alike then different. The word liberal used to mean something completely different 10 years ago to what is associated with the term today as well. The same can be said for the term conservative.
The Great Zaganza
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It would be a good start if Conservative Voices would make more of an effort to keep political and cultural progressivism separate: contrary to many CT's, Hillary Clinton isn't in charge of Hollywood.
River
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I think you may mistake some of those "deniers" as people that understand the issue on a deeper level. I think the mistake can be made in saying there is no such thing as climate change. However, the disagreements seem to be about how much human created co2 gases influence our temperatures, and for how long. Not that they do or don't.
I'm not familiar with Harris but I'm going to do some youtube browsing in a bit. That is one of the reasons I made the post, to discover some of the views and opinions of others here that may think differently than myself.
I like Shapiro and tend to agree with him on most issues. I do disagree with him on a few things like the issue of choice with abortion. I think his religious views sway him in some ways. For modern conservative voices, his and mine align in many ways.
I've always liked Rice, and felt like she has been a consistent and powerful voice.
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The Great Zaganza
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Nonsense.
How would that be AT ALL relevant?
If the house is burning down, why do we sit around arguing if it was someone's fault or a lightning strike?
Why don't we try to put out the fire first and assign blame later?
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Slings and Arrows
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"Candace Owens, who said Blacks should not be concerned about the resurgence of White Nationalism. Candace Owens whored herself out to Trump a long time ago. She is held in zero regard by the black community for good reason. She is one of the House N Words for the far right."
-- dudalb (Aug 6, 2018)