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Consciousness question

Aside from the fact that it flickers, is there anything sentient or, animate about a candle? Ever see a candle get up of its own accord and make a piece of toast? Ever see one candle speak to another, and talk about something entirely outside of their realm? Say like the mugging that occurred at the bus stop yesterday?
The candle is quite wise; it knows its limitations. It contemplates, in near-silence, the value of illumination, and decides in a celebration of freedom to cast its light on good and bad alike. Shakespeare wrote by candlelight; so did de Sade. The candle chose to serve them equally.

You may say that a candle never did anything by itself; neither has any human. We all are the products of our environments (this is not mere assertion; there are thousands upon thousands of experiments to back this up). I can name a handful of teachers who ignited my interests in some subjects, others who fanned the flames, and still others who added fuel to the fire. Without these others, there would be no fire. Some researchers go so far as to suggest (you would know if you were not so afraid of research) that without these others, there would be no consciousness.

Your examples all rely on circular reasoning, you must certainly know by now. You say that people can get up and make toast, or talk to one another, because of sentience. But of course, these behaviors are what you are observing that allow you to infer sentience in the first place. They serve, thus, as both cause and effect in your example. They are circular, and they are meaningless. Your examples have nearly always been circular, and they have always been meaningless. We have suggested readings and videos which would allow you to re-evaluate your view of consciousness, sentience, etc., but you stick with examples and explanations that have been shown to be internally flawed. If we assume for the briefest moment that your view on this is actually correct, then your examples are the worst disservice you could do to that view. What a shame it would be if you were right, but because you refused to look at the evidence and to reexamine your logic, you could never convince anyone.

I do not think you are right. But then, I think you cannot be right without first being coherent, and your view is not coherent. There is a cure for that. You can, and you should, educate yourself on the evidence available on this, your chosen subject. You can, and you should, educate yourself on the logical fallacies you have employed. You can, and you should, pay attention to the advice you receive here, and act on that advice.

I do not think you will do any of that. I think you will deny your ignorance, deny your illogic, deny that any of our advice is helpful or even needed. I would love to be wrong about this, but I don't think I am in this case.
 
Nicely phrased, good Mercutio. Thou dos't the Bard proud! :D


And I notice that it's several hours later and the Mods still haven't taken me to task over my cruel treatment of poor Iacchus, despite his claimed reporting. Just one more piece of evidence that (as our Texan friends would say) he's all hat and no cattle.
 
Thats the point dear Iacchus. This has nothing to do with anything I said. Im curious about your purpose in this forums. I guess is not to learn, and Im willing to bet that its not to convince us. So, whats your goal?

I will tell you mine. Learn to think and discuss in an intelligent manner. Im also doing some kind of research regarding our belief systems, and I feel that trying to understand people like you (this is, people who honestly believe a different thing that what I believe) will get me closer to understand whats the common ground to beliefs in general.
If the assumption is made that I don't know what I'm talking about, regarding things of a spiritual nature, then it should also be asssumed that I have no business being here.
 
If the assumption is made that I don't know what I'm talking about, regarding things of a spiritual nature, then it should also be asssumed that I have no business being here.
I will accept that assumption. However, forum rules clearly state that anyone may be here, regardless of whether or not they have any business being so. Lucky for you, eh?
 
If the assumption is made that I don't know what I'm talking about, regarding things of a spiritual nature, then it should also be asssumed that I have no business being here.
It is not an assumption. It is a conclusion, based on available evidence, and subject to confirmation or disconfirmation by subsequent evidence.

Do you have any evidence that supports your contention that you do know what you are talking about? That's all we have been asking for...
 
I will accept that assumption. However, forum rules clearly state that anyone may be here, regardless of whether or not they have any business being so. Lucky for you, eh?
If they wish to ban me, that's entirely up to them. It's no skin off my knuckles.
 
Iacchus, let me ask you this. RAM certainly doesn't maintain data when you turn a computer off, so, where does that data go?
Yes, I've had to think about this one. :) I believe it is dissipated (as energy) through the chasis of the computer and into the ground. However, the memory is only as good as that which accesses it, and this is not the same thing. Of course the next thing to ask would be if a computer can become self-aware? This, I can't say.
 
If they wish to ban me, that's entirely up to them. It's no skin off my knuckles.
Actually, I don't want you banned. You are the poster boy for ignorant theists. I want everybody to see the stuff you spout. Even other woo-woos shy away from you. You're recruiting for our side. Please don't stop.
 
I'm speaking of a point of view which stems from another reality, yes.

Hi Iacchus

I admire your single minded convictions about what you believe, but I think you should at least consider the other valid alternatives to your arguments. A good few years back I also thought of the brain as a radio receiver idea along with quite a few others about how consciousness might work. All my ideas were based on ways in which I or our consciousness might be able to survive physical death. I was going through a bit of a Philosophical crisis at the time and led to a deep depression. I didn't (and still don't) believe in God so I had to try and create some kind of meaning that would allow me to stop obsessing about the big question.

The difference in how I came up with my ideas was that I absolutely refused to use the God idea and just use current scientific knowledge that I had read so far. What I did was to interpret all the Science and Philosophy material I had read and came up with some really inventive ways in which the survival of consciousness might work, but eventually I came to the conclusion that no matter what fanciful ideas I could come up with, none of it could be proven, even though it made perfect sense to me.

My way of seeing things now is to accept both possibilities, one where you die and that's it, game over, nothing, or the possibility that there might be something about reality we have not yet discovered, that there might be some deeper level of reality that consciousness is tied into. The most important thing to realise about both these possibilities is that the first possibility is, in all likely hood, the accurate outcome, but the second possibility leaves open that little bit of doubt and if that makes you sleep a bit easier at night, then that's a good thing for you.

In the mean time I will carry on reading and consuming as much knowledge as I can about how the universe works and what all the sciences can discover. Knowledge is power, it also allows you to be more objective.

If there is anything after I die, I'd rather be a well read/informed dead person than to have lived a life with such a limited worldview.

Regards
 
So has anyone got any skeptical / scientific idea of what the hell consiciousness is all about?
 
So then, the assumption is merely on my part? Great! :rolleyes:
I can see why you might perceive it as an assumption; most conclusions are built up after looking at a great deal of evidence. However, with you, it is most often the case that your very first post on a topic is already making a strong statement that runs counter to the observed evidence, is internally inconsistent, and fails logically. In this case, one need not drink the whole glass; one sip is enough to know the milk is sour.
 
So has anyone got any skeptical / scientific idea of what the hell consiciousness is all about?
Yes. Some very good ideas. These are the videos I have been recommending, from the Brain, Mind, & Consciousness symposium in L.A. last Spring. Several hours worth of watching, but you will see very quickly that there is quite a lot of varied research (not mere armchair speculation) on consciousness.
 
Yes, I've had to think about this one. :) I believe it is dissipated (as energy) through the chasis of the computer and into the ground. However, the memory is only as good as that which accesses it, and this is not the same thing. Of course the next thing to ask would be if a computer can become self-aware? This, I can't say.
And our energy (actual metabolic energy, that is, not some hazy metaphorical spiritual energy) is dissipated into worms and bacteria. Of course, the next thing to ask would be whether a person can become self-aware, and what that actually means...and what it does not mean.
 

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