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Consciousness question

Iacchus said:
As I understand, those who die as little children are automatically recieved into heaven. But, I guess I'm spared that option because I don't plan on having any kids. And no, not because anyone won't have me ... albeit I am getting a bit too old.
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Yes...Andrea Yates believed that too. So if a mother truly loved her kids and wanted to absolutely ensure that they would have eternal bliss instead of eternal damnation--then the "right" thing to do would be to send them to heaven as children--even if it meant you'd suffer eternally--both in this life and the next. Why don't religious people who believe like you do defend Andrea Yates as a martyr? She made sure the people she loved most got eternal bliss rather than eternal damnation.

I guess all the belief stuff is good if you're pretty sure you are going to get into heaven--but what a burden for those who have to fear the possibility of hell for themselves and/or their loved ones--especially if you can be damned for not believing right (or disciplining your kids enough).
 
articulett said:
Yes...Andrea Yates believed that too. So if a mother truly loved her kids and wanted to absolutely ensure that they would have eternal bliss instead of eternal damnation--then the "right" thing to do would be to send them to heaven as children--even if it meant you'd suffer eternally--both in this life and the next. Why don't religious people who believe like you do defend Andrea Yates as a martyr? She made sure the people she loved most got eternal bliss rather than eternal damnation.
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I believe that people can be driven to such things. But no, I don't believe it's a pretty picture. I think the children are probably better off, however, regardless of the mom's condition.

I guess all the belief stuff is good if you're pretty sure you are going to get into heaven--but what a burden for those who have to fear the possibility of hell for themselves and/or their loved ones--especially if you can be damned for not believing right (or disciplining your kids enough).
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I think it's wrong to assume that one is going to heaven. I have doubts about it myself in fact, because when in heaven it requires you undergo a change in state/perspective which, is not readily experiencable via the natural mind. The two are nearly irreconcilable (vastly different at least) in my opinion. This is why I don't waste a great deal of effort trying to explain what it's about ... and probably explains why so many people get so many weird ideas about it.
 
(emphasis mine)
Iacchus said:
I believe that people can be driven to such things. But no, I don't believe it's a pretty picture. I think the children are probably better off, however, regardless of the mom's condition.

I think it's wrong to assume that one is going to heaven. I have doubts about it myself in fact, because when in heaven it requires you undergo a change in state/perspective which, is not readily experiencable via the natural mind. The two are nearly irreconcilable (vastly different at least) in my opinion. This is why I don't waste a great deal of effort trying to explain what it's about ... and probably explains why so many people get so many weird ideas about it.
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The children are dead, Iacchus. Dead. I don't even want to think what their last moments were like, dying at the hands of their own mother.

Any philosophy that allows us to take child murder and say "the children are probably better off" is just plain sick and twisted.
 
Mercutio said:
The children are dead, Iacchus. Dead. I don't even want to think what their last moments were like, dying at the hands of their own mother.

Any philosophy that allows us to take child murder and say "the children are probably better off" is just plain sick and twisted.
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Well, if you believe that death is all there is, then you don't have to worry about the children suffering any further at the hands of their mother now do you? Of course if death is really all there is, then suffering really doesn't mean much either. Or, maybe it's possible that this whole thing stems from our desire -- mine, yours and everyone else's -- to live forever? Why should living for forever even have any meaning?

Oh, and what is so healthy about being unable to come to terms with one's own death?
 
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Iacchus said:
Well, if you believe that death is all there is, then you don't have to worry about the children suffering any further at the hands of their mother now do you? Of course if death is really all there is, then suffering really doesn't mean much either. Or, maybe it's possible that this whole thing stems from our desire -- mine, yours and everyone else's -- to live forever? Why should living for forever even have any meaning?

Oh, and what is so healthy about being unable to come to terms with one's own death?
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Thank you for illustrating my point. Yes, Iacchus, it is precisely this sort of thing that I find morally reprehensible. It is an insult to anyone who ever cared about a child, and it is an insult to the memory of, and the lost potential of, the Yates children.

You hide behind levels of abstraction, but you are pissing on these kids' graves, and it is disgusting.
 
Mercutio said:
Thank you for illustrating my point. Yes, Iacchus, it is precisely this sort of thing that I find morally reprehensible. It is an insult to anyone who ever cared about a child, and it is an insult to the memory of, and the lost potential of, the Yates children.

You hide behind levels of abstraction, but you are pissing on these kids' graves, and it is disgusting.
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The spirit lives on. This is all I can say.
 
Chewbacca : mmmmmmmmmmmmmmwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Han Solo : Sorry chewy, I'm all out of protection.
 
Mercutio said:
So you don't care that those kids are dead.

[comment deleted]
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In terms of being immortal, why should we be afraid of that which can't harm us? The only thing that makes me sad, is that I'm unable to join them.
 
Iacchus said:
In terms of being immortal, why should we be afraid of that which can't harm us? The only thing that makes me sad, is that I'm unable to join them.
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Interesting response. Are you trying to bait Mercution into advocating suicide and get himself suspended or something? Or why would you say such a thing?
 
Donks said:
Interesting response. Are you trying to bait Mercution into advocating suicide and get himself suspended or something? Or why would you say such a thing?
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Why are you trying to bait me? If I were an advocate of suicide (albeit I may have tried it once or twice ;)), do you think I would be here talking about it now?
 
Iacchus said:
Why are you trying to bait me? If I were an advocate of suicide (albeit I may have tried it once or twice ;)), do you think I would be here talking about it now?
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Errr, I was not trying to bait you. I asked if you were trying to bait Mercutio
 
Good morning. In less than one
hour planes from here and all
around the world will launch the
largest aerial battle in the
history of mankind...

Mankind. The word has new meaning
for all of us now. We are
reminded not of our petty
differences but of our common
interests.
Perhaps it's fate that today, July
the Fourth, we will once again
fight for our freedom. Not from
tyranny, persecution or
oppression. But from
annihilation. We're fighting for
our right to live, to exit. From
this day on, the fourth day of
July will no longer be remembered
as an American holiday but as the
day that all of mankind declared
we will not go quietly into the
night. We will not vanish without
a fight. We will live on. We
will survive.
 
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