Conformity and Bullying

[sphenisc]

I am not sure I understand what you are asking; in general or at my daughter's school?

At your daughter's school.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It wasn't just the people who got pushed back that complained. Also people in front of them, not affected by their behavior at all, spoke up.

One of the people who complained to the line-cutter said, "There are people in the back who won't get in now!" She said this even though she was told that EVERYONE was going to get in (it was a tour of a naval ship).

It was stupid and irrational...and that's what the experimenters were trying to determine. Do people get stupid and irrational when they see someone failing to conform to social standards?

Hmmm, I still don't see this as conformity to social standards more a sense of justice, hence the people infront complaining as well, as I previously pointed out it very hard to envisage a situation in the real world where being ahead in a line doesn't confer any advantage and most people consider it right that if someone has invested in something (such as time queueing) it's right that they should profit from it more than someone who hasn't made any investment. Obviously the woman hadn't registered that there was no cut of limit, but even if it was just that a person who was pushed in front of might have to wait longer for their turn and hence have spent longer on their feet/lost more time recognising that that is not irrational.

I'd also say that the conformist behaviour in these circumstances is generally not complaining about it, it's more conformist to grumble but not want to make a fuss and draw attention to oneself, and a group of people refusing to allow push in's is hardly bullying, rather someone forcing their way into an existing queue is trying to bully their way into getting an advantage at no cost.

 

[Rufo]

Believing that you are no more important than anyone else in this sort of situation is the essence of conformity.

No, it's the essence of equality. Equality is about being equal, whereas conformity is about being similar and uniform. People can be different and still equal.

This is a pretty important distinction, because enforcing conformity can easily descend into bullying, whereas enforcing equality is an important step in preventing it.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Some of the other experiments they did:

1. Have a group of people staring and pointing up at a tree. When people walking by asked what they were looking at, they told them there was a snake in the tree. After a little coaxing, they actually SAW a snake in the tree, even though there was none. They continuted to believe the snake was there even after they were told it was not.

2. Have someone in street clothes go up to a table in a restaurant and ask the customers to give up their seat. Of course, they all told him to drop dead. However, when he wore a uniform...even a janitor's uniform...most people willingly gave up their seat.

3. "Train" a person told he was attending a market study to stand, then sit, when a bell chimes, just by having a group of actors mechanically do this without comment. He was trained so well that even when the actors were removed and he was the only one in the room, he continued to do it. When a new person entered the room, he told him what to do as well.

4. See if they could get people to follow a completely arbitrary line placed on the floor just by putting up a sign saying "Walk only on the line." Eventually, they were able to get people to walk in circles.

Very several years ago, I watched a fresh batch of students enter an auditorium, on the floor of which was a white tape outline that left very little space at the edges of the room, outside the irregular shape it created. It had nothing to do with them or the reason they were there (it was for a production later in the week). Every single one of them stayed outside the outline, to the extent of cramming together more than (I imagine) they would otherwise find acceptable with a group of strangers. But nobody was going to be the first to cross the line. People are curious critters...

 

[sgtbaker]

At your daughter's school.

Oh, that's the basic cutting of the line. The majority of people would get in line and wait till the cars move, so they can pull up and get their child. There are always the people that decide not to wait, drive up as far as they can in the other lane, pass ten cars that got there before them, then jump into the actual line, to pick up their kids.

 

[sphenisc]

Oh, that's the basic cutting of the line. The majority of people would get in line and wait till the cars move, so they can pull up and get their child. There are always the people that decide not to wait, drive up as far as they can in the other lane, pass ten cars that got there before them, then jump into the actual line, to pick up their kids.

Ah, got it. What do you think the experimenters would learn? Is it the same people who are repeatedly "non-conformist"? Do the show any signs of recognising their own behaviour as "anti-social" , e.g. avoiding eye-contact as they drive past? Are they "punished" by conformists, e.g. tooted at?

Do you think this a case where conformity is confounded by fairness?

[ That's a lot of questions - it's not meant as an interrogation, just interested in your comparison between experiment and real life. ]

 

[Delvo]

Bullying can't be an evolved behavior because it only shows up in a situation that has only appeared relatively recently: kids spending hours in a row day after day surrounded mostly by other kids close to the same age instead of by a mix of all the ages in the tribe.

 

[sgtbaker]

Ah, got it. What do you think the experimenters would learn? Is it the same people who are repeatedly "non-conformist"? Do the show any signs of recognising their own behaviour as "anti-social" , e.g. avoiding eye-contact as they drive past? Are they "punished" by conformists, e.g. tooted at?

Do you think this a case where conformity is confounded by fairness?

[ That's a lot of questions - it's not meant as an interrogation, just interested in your comparison between experiment and real life. ]

The intended pick up pattern was, stay in the right lane until you pick up your child, then exit into the left lane. Then, it started off with one or two people doing it, but as they were getting away with it, more people started just pulling up in the left lane, picking their kid up in the left lane, and leaving, which blocked the people in the right lane (following the intended pattern) from leaving.

The pick up pattern was changed, in the beginning of the year, because of the cutting and people trying to prevent it. Three car accidents forced the school to try and remedy the situation but they made it worse by blocking off only a portion of the right lane. First people formed the line in the right lane and then moved into the left lane to get around the blocked portion. However, again, it started off with one or two but more and more started following suit; people would pull in and go all the way up the left lane, which prevented people in the right lane, who were there first, from getting around the block. So, people started just making the line in the left lane and leaving the right lane open. Which, again, those same people would use to get past a bunch of cars, now in the left lane, and would just pull out in front of one of the cars in the left lane.

The evolution of the pick up area got interesting, though. As more and more people get that sense of, "if he/she doesn't have to wait, neither do I, " a new pattern was set in motion. Now, instead of waiting in the line, they would pull into the parking area and start blocking up all those lanes, so they didn't have to wait to get out, after they got their kid. By the end of the year, all four lanes, between the parked cars were completely congested with cars waiting to pick up their kids and now the people actually parked over there, couldn't get out until the lanes cleared.

Sorry, that's a lot. The pattern I noticed, though, is no one would say anything (after the accidents, of course). It would start off with one or two people doing it, one day. You wouldn't get horns or yelling, but you would get a wave of "WTF" hand gestures. The next day, more people would break conformity, and so on, until it turns into a new mess, by the end of the week. I can't say for sure, if it was the same people, in all cases, but I remember the beat up red pickup truck, only because it stands out in my mind, was one of the nonconformists.

I think adults have a different set of conformity, though: don't make a scene lest I look petty. I see it when people jump lines at stores, too. Everyone wants to let the line jumper know that they are annoyed without actually confronting the behavior directly.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

The line example sounds more like people standing up to a bully rather than being the bullies. In that instance the bully is the line cutter who is not conforming to societal rules.

I think groups mimic each other (walking on the line) without question as a survival technique. Back in the wild if someone saw a group avoidind a certain area they would also avoid it. Because the others are doing so for a reason. Also no one wants to look stupid by admitting they don't know why they're doing it .

As to our dislike of 'outsiders', it kind of makes some sense. We would have considered the people around us (to whom we were probably related in some way. I have relatives in a village, trust me on this) to be the norm appearance- and behaviour-wise. Anyone who was different would have been jarring to our senses in a way similar to the uncanny valley. They looked like us but not quite. They would also have been competing for resources and mates, thus reducing the chance of our groups' genes being passed on.

This obviously doesn't always apply now, but it will take a long time for our bodies and minds to fully catch up with the changes around us i.e.large cities with mixed populations.

It would probably go a lot quicker if society could just admit that we are animals, and that like all animals we are not always in control. Once we admit that we can perhaps find ways to work around our impulses and knee-jerk responses.

 

[luchog]

It was stupid and irrational...and that's what the experimenters were trying to determine. Do people get stupid and irrational when they see someone failing to conform to social standards?

Irrational, perhaps; but hardly stupid. We're conditioned from early youth to associate queue with limited access to desired results. It's ingrained. Even if it just means getting in a bit sooner than everyone else, that can still be associated with achieving a more desirable position (eg. being able to be up near the front where the view is less obscured, vs. being at the back and having greater difficulty seeing and hearing what is going on). To try and associate reactions to queue-jumping with conformity is just too flawed; and fails to account for too many other variables.

 

[luchog]

Some of the other experiments they did:

1. Have a group of people staring and pointing up at a tree. When people walking by asked what they were looking at, they told them there was a snake in the tree. After a little coaxing, they actually SAW a snake in the tree, even though there was none. They continuted to believe the snake was there even after they were told it was not.

This is nothing new; but would seem to support the assertion that conformity is ingrained.

2. Have someone in street clothes go up to a table in a restaurant and ask the customers to give up their seat. Of course, they all told him to drop dead. However, when he wore a uniform...even a janitor's uniform...most people willingly gave up their seat.

Again, too flawed to support the assertion. Culturally, we are conditioned to view uniforms as symbols of authority; and there are typically either good reasons to obey figures of authority, and/or penalties for failing to do so. In the case of the Janitor, there may be a good reason for moving if one asks you to do so, such as the table being insufficiently clean, or located under a leak, etc. In fact, obeying authority is so ingrained, it's very easy to manipulate people simply by adequately impersonating an authority figure; check out the Bavarian Fire Drill for a great example of how little perceived authority is actually needed.

3. "Train" a person told he was attending a market study to stand, then sit, when a bell chimes, just by having a group of actors mechanically do this without comment. He was trained so well that even when the actors were removed and he was the only one in the room, he continued to do it. When a new person entered the room, he told him what to do as well.

Again, this would seem to support it.

4. See if they could get people to follow a completely arbitrary line placed on the floor just by putting up a sign saying "Walk only on the line." Eventually, they were able to get people to walk in circles.

Again, flawed due to too many other cultural variables.

 

[Kid Eager]

Believing that you are no more important than anyone else in this sort of situation is the essence of conformity.

How so? I may be believe that I'm more important but see no compelling reason to act upon that believe it as I'm aware that he *whole* world doesn't revolve around me?