Conformity and Bullying

[aggle-rithm]

Yesterday I was watching the show "Head Games", which was demonstrating how we humans are all hard-wired to conform to the norms of society. Not only are we highly motivated to conform, we are motivated to enforce conformity on others.

One experiment they showed involved getting people to queue up in a meaningless line. It didn't matter where you were in line, everyone was going to the same place at the same time. Nevertheless, when actors were sent in to "cut" in line, more than one person became outraged and insisted that they take their proper place at the end of the line.

This got me thinking about the "recent" bullying epidemic in our schools. Though it's gotten a lot of publicity lately, I have always suspected it has been going on essentially since prehistoric times. My hypothesis is that, among the young and inexperienced, people who are different are seen as nonconformists, and are therefore shunned and/or punished for their failure to be like everyone else.

Clearly, this irrational behavior gets tempered as we get older and realize that bring different is not really a choice on the other person's part. Nevertheless, it is impossible to completely overcome the urge to punish those who don't fit in...it's a hard-wired behavior encoded by evolution.

It also occured to me that this could account for the hostile reaction often encountered by true believers who come to this site for the first time. They are often "piled upon" by otherwise rational skeptics, who, I believe, are merely following their biological imperative to enforce a community ethos on all comers.

Something to think about?

 

[sphenisc]

How did they show it was hard-wired?

 

[BobTheCoward]

I have wondered if bullying at one time was a positive trait for survival. When I see the kid getting picked on in the film "Bully," I see a pack of mammals going after another who appears obviously inferior and odd.

 

[Careyp74]

I have to question the experiment. Usually a line means that you are going to have to wait a certain amount of time, depending on your position in line, to access something. Cut in front of me and I will get upset.

Now, if there was no difference in what position in line you are, then the people in the experiment were just plain stupid. Why even form a line in the first place?

 

[Careyp74]

I have wondered if bullying at one time was a positive trait for survival. When I see the kid getting picked on in the film "Bully," I see a pack of mammals going after another who appears obviously inferior and odd.

any one of those kids in the pack could be the inferior or odd one, depending on what day it is. I don't think the pack looks at it in a fittest for survival type of way.

New kids are often the ones picked on. Or someone that doesn't want to be a part of the pack. This isn't an inferiority trait.

 

[Careyp74]

How did they show it was hard-wired?

Right, could be something that many parents are instilling into the children, or certain types of society.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Now, if there was no difference in what position in line you are, then the people in the experiment were just plain stupid. Why even form a line in the first place?

Someone in authority told them to get in line. There's that conformity kicking in again.

After the experiment, when the subjects were told what was really going on, they openly acknowledged that they were being stupid. They knew, intellectually, that it wasn't that big a deal. They just couldn't help themselves.

 

[aggle-rithm]

How did they show it was hard-wired?

They didn't get into the research behind it, but they did describe how the brain automatically bypasses the normal cognitive centers when in a situation like this, allowing "group-think" to take over.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I have to question the experiment. Usually a line means that you are going to have to wait a certain amount of time, depending on your position in line, to access something. Cut in front of me and I will get upset.

Now, if there was no difference in what position in line you are, then the people in the experiment were just plain stupid. Why even form a line in the first place?

It's hard to think of a set of circumstances where queue position would confer no advantage what so ever, even if it's just as trivial as getting to sit down sooner. This experiment seems to risk confusing conformity with a sense of what is fair.

 

[aggle-rithm]

any one of those kids in the pack could be the inferior or odd one, depending on what day it is. I don't think the pack looks at it in a fittest for survival type of way.

New kids are often the ones picked on. Or someone that doesn't want to be a part of the pack. This isn't an inferiority trait.

Here's what I think is going on: Hard-wired behavior tends to be simplistic. It's too complicated to spot "inferior". The brain settles for "different", which can sometimes be maladaptive. It's only when we get older and smarter that we can truly separate the two.

 

[Careyp74]

It's hard to think of a set of circumstances where queue position would confer no advantage what so ever, even if it's just as trivial as getting to sit down sooner. This experiment seems to risk confusing conformity with a sense of what is fair.

That is what I had in mind. Even if it means getting through the door 10 seconds earlier, well, don't try getting ahead of me without expecting an altercation. I had to stand in line all that time.

 

[aggle-rithm]

That is what I had in mind. Even if it means getting through the door 10 seconds earlier, well, don't try getting ahead of me without expecting an altercation. I had to stand in line all that time.

It wasn't just the people who got pushed back that complained. Also people in front of them, not affected by their behavior at all, spoke up.

One of the people who complained to the line-cutter said, "There are people in the back who won't get in now!" She said this even though she was told that EVERYONE was going to get in (it was a tour of a naval ship).

It was stupid and irrational...and that's what the experimenters were trying to determine. Do people get stupid and irrational when they see someone failing to conform to social standards?

 

[Cainkane1]

Yesterday I was watching the show "Head Games", which was demonstrating how we humans are all hard-wired to conform to the norms of society. Not only are we highly motivated to conform, we are motivated to enforce conformity on others.

One experiment they showed involved getting people to queue up in a meaningless line. It didn't matter where you were in line, everyone was going to the same place at the same time. Nevertheless, when actors were sent in to "cut" in line, more than one person became outraged and insisted that they take their proper place at the end of the line.

This got me thinking about the "recent" bullying epidemic in our schools. Though it's gotten a lot of publicity lately, I have always suspected it has been going on essentially since prehistoric times. My hypothesis is that, among the young and inexperienced, people who are different are seen as nonconformists, and are therefore shunned and/or punished for their failure to be like everyone else.

Clearly, this irrational behavior gets tempered as we get older and realize that bring different is not really a choice on the other person's part. Nevertheless, it is impossible to completely overcome the urge to punish those who don't fit in...it's a hard-wired behavior encoded by evolution.

It also occured to me that this could account for the hostile reaction often encountered by true believers who come to this site for the first time. They are often "piled upon" by otherwise rational skeptics, who, I believe, are merely following their biological imperative to enforce a community ethos on all comers.

Something to think about?

I don't believe deliberate cruelty is a genetic trait found in everybody. I personally always felt compassion for the victims of bullys. So do most people. I'll go as far as to say its bullying thats unnatural as it accomplishes nothing more than a few moments of sick pleasure for the bully. In one sense everybodys different so how could bullying be the norm?

As far as us bullying some believer its usually them that starts the arguments not us. Just because we disagree with them and tell them why we disagree with them doesn't make us the bully. Disagreement isn't bullying.

 

[sgtbaker]

It wasn't just the people who got pushed back that complained. Also people in front of them, not affected by their behavior at all, spoke up.

One of the people who complained to the line-cutter said, "There are people in the back who won't get in now!" She said this even though she was told that EVERYONE was going to get in (it was a tour of a naval ship).

It was stupid and irrational...and that's what the experimenters were trying to determine. Do people get stupid and irrational when they see someone failing to conform to social standards?

It's not that I disagree with the end result, because I do agree that it comes down to conformity. I just feel like the person doing the line jumping is saying to everyone else, "I am more important," or "I don't care that the rest of you waited your turn, I don't want to wait."

 

[aggle-rithm]

Some of the other experiments they did:

1. Have a group of people staring and pointing up at a tree. When people walking by asked what they were looking at, they told them there was a snake in the tree. After a little coaxing, they actually SAW a snake in the tree, even though there was none. They continuted to believe the snake was there even after they were told it was not.

2. Have someone in street clothes go up to a table in a restaurant and ask the customers to give up their seat. Of course, they all told him to drop dead. However, when he wore a uniform...even a janitor's uniform...most people willingly gave up their seat.

3. "Train" a person told he was attending a market study to stand, then sit, when a bell chimes, just by having a group of actors mechanically do this without comment. He was trained so well that even when the actors were removed and he was the only one in the room, he continued to do it. When a new person entered the room, he told him what to do as well.

4. See if they could get people to follow a completely arbitrary line placed on the floor just by putting up a sign saying "Walk only on the line." Eventually, they were able to get people to walk in circles.

 

[aggle-rithm]

It's not that I disagree with the end result, because I do agree that it comes down to conformity. I just feel like the person doing the line jumping is saying to everyone else, "I am more important," or "I don't care that the rest of you waited your turn, I don't want to wait."

Believing that you are no more important than anyone else in this sort of situation is the essence of conformity.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I don't believe deliberate cruelty is a genetic trait found in everybody. I personally always felt compassion for the victims of bullys. So do most people. I'll go as far as to say its bullying thats unnatural as it accomplishes nothing more than a few moments of sick pleasure for the bully. In one sense everybodys different so how could bullying be the norm?

As far as us bullying some believer its usually them that starts the arguments not us. Just because we disagree with them and tell them why we disagree with them doesn't make us the bully. Disagreement isn't bullying.

We should probably define "bullying". If it is the mistreatment of another person as a display of dominance and power, then that is, although not unnatural, an exception to the rule. It's the sort of thing that only confers an advantage (according to game theory) if a small number of individuals do it.

I have found, though, that when bullying is talked about in the media these days, they are simply talking about groups of people ganging up on someone who is different. I think this is the sort of thing where the rational brain gets turned off and group-think sets in.

 

[sgtbaker]

Believing that you are no more important than anyone else in this sort of situation is the essence of conformity.

That's what I am saying, it still comes down to conformity but it's just funny the way it actually causes an emotional reaction. I wish whoever was doing these experiments, came down to observe the behavior in the pick up area at my daughter's school.

 

[sphenisc]

That's what I am saying, it still comes down to conformity but it's just funny the way it actually causes an emotional reaction. I wish whoever was doing these experiments, came down to observe the behavior in the pick up area at my daughter's school.

What sort of behaviour are you thinking of?

 

[sgtbaker]

What sort of behaviour are you thinking of?

I am not sure I understand what you are asking; in general or at my daughter's school?