Comparing the rate at which two chains fall in different scenarios

Okay, you're a buffoon. Do you hear me? A buffoon. You tell me to check my maths.
Erm, on second thoughts, I think Art Vandelay meant to petition you to check your arithmetic. The length of the chain is given as 1,000 metres in the OP. You seem to have used 100 metres in your calculations. BTW, the reduced drop of 10 m comes out at 21.5 m/s for a 100 m long chain.

'Luthon64
 
Okay, let's do the maths. First, a reminder of exactly what ImaginalDisc is asking.

Does each chain slip over the edge at the same rate...
I thought so too, but I considered that when chain B's first link hits the groud...
Perhaps I don't understand the math well enough, but I thought that the last link of each chain would fall over the edge at the same rate of speed.
I asked at what rate of speed the last link would slip off the edge of the precipice at.
Hokay?

Now then, let R be the total length of the chain, let t be time, let r be the distance the chain has has fallen as a function of t (and so r', r'' are the velocity and acceleration as functions of time). Let T be the time that ImaginalDisc is asking about: the time at which the last bit of chain slips over the edge. And let g be Galileo's constant.

Now, unless you're Art Vandelay, and if you can still remember how to draw a force diagram, the force acting on the chain is rgD, where D is a constant in kilogram / meters (the "density" of the chain).

The mass to be shifted by this force is RD.

The acceleration of the chain is therefore given by:

r'' = rgD / RD = rg / R

Hence (for some c and d) we have

r = cekt + de-kt
where k is the square root of g / R.

Likewise, we have r' = ckekt - dke-kt
c and d are determined by our boundary conditions. For starters, we want the velocity at time 0 to be 0. Inserting t = 0 into our formula for velocity, we get

r'(0) = (c - d) (ke0 + ke0)

But of course we require r'(0) [i.e.the velocity at time 0] to be zero, so this means

c = d

This means that our formula for distance can be rewritten as

r = c(ekt + e-kt)

So, how do we determine c?

We can't without extending the question slightly.

The thing is that we'd like our boundary condition for distance to be that at time 0 there is no chain hanging over the edge. But if we do that, the system will never move.

In order for questions about the dynamics of the system to have any meaning at all, if we start with r'(0)=0 we must assign a small but non-zero value to r(0). And whatever it is, c must be twice that, as we can see by substituting t = 0 into the equation for r.

Now, this tells us something interesting about the dynamics of the situation: if we halve c, the distance travelled in n seconds (for any n < T) is also halved. We can make ImaginalDisc's time T as large as we choose by making c as small as we choose. As c tends to zero, T tends to infinity.

Fortunately, ImaginalDisc doesn't want us to calculate, T, but r'(T). Now here we have some hope. We know that the dynamics of the situation fix r(T), since r(T) = R. And it fixes r''(T), since r''(t) = g. Hence we may at least hope that as c tends to zero, r'(T) tends towards some constant.

In fact, we can get at the answer through the very fact that as c tends to 0, T tends to infinity. For if this is true, then given our formula for distance at time T:

r(T) = c(ekT + e-kT)

we can write

r(T) tends towards cekT as c tends towards 0.

since

ce-kT tends toward zero as c tends towards zero and T tends towards infinity.

In the same way, in the limit (c = 0) we have

r'(T) = kcekT
and

r''(T) = k²cekT
But we know that r(T) = g --- that when the last bit of the chain is unsupported, the thing is in freefall. So we can write

g = k²cekT
Divide the equation

r'(T) = kcekT
by the equation

g = k²cekT
and we get r'(T) / g = 1 / k

Notice how c just vanished from the equation! Hooray!

Hence

r'(T) = g / k

Now recall that we defined k to be the square root of g/r.

Hence r'(T) is the square root of g times the square root of r.

Therefore, Art Vandelay is a complete twat without one single redeeming merit.
 
Erm, on second thoughts, I think Art Vandelay meant to petition you to check your arithmetic.
I'll still go for the "he's a moron" option, considering the comments he's made on the physics of the situation and the fact that my formula was correct.
 
Jesus. I wish I could do sums. I didn't understand any of that, Dr A, (Except for the "twat" bit), but it makes me happy that there are people who do understand it. I'm impressed and jealous in almost equal proportions.
 
The length of the chain is given as 1,000 metres in the OP. You seem to have used 100 metres in your calculations.
Quite right --- my apologies to ImaginalDisc --- by the time I'd derived the formula, I'd forgotten which numbers I was meant to be sticking into it. The shorter chain, at the specified moment, has velocity of 9.9 m/s as I said. But the longer chain is 1000 meters long, and not 100 (as I mistakenly said) and so for that chain the velocity is 99 m/s. Oopsie. The formula is, of course, correct.
 
Quite right --- my apologies to ImaginalDisc --- by the time I'd derived the formula, I'd forgotten which numbers I was meant to be sticking into it. The shorter chain, at the specified moment, has velocity of 9.9 m/s as I said. But the longer chain is 1000 meters long, and not 100 (as I mistakenly said) and so for that chain the velocity is 99 m/s. Oopsie. The formula is, of course, correct.
Uhm, it seems to me that one of us has misunderstood ImaginalDisc's OP with regard to the reduced drop situation. The way I understand it is that both chains are of equal length (ImaginalDisc says as much), meaning that up to the point where 10 m of chain have passed over the edge, the two situations are identical. Thereafter, in the full drop scenario the force on the remaining chain continues to increase as more chain passes over the edge, while in the reduced drop that force remains constant for the remaining 990 m of chain - that is, there are three segments of chain: the segment left at the top, 10 m of falling chain, and an excess at the bottom that no longer plays any role. If my understanding is correct, then your answer of 9.9 m/s for the final velocity (i.e. at the moment when the last bit of chain passes the edge) is incorrect.

Also, your derivation can be much simplified if you solve the r" differential equation in terms of r by using the substitution v = r' (differentiations are w.r.t. to time), whence r" = v' = dv/dt = (dv/dr)(dr/dt) = v(dv/dr). The velocity then immediately emerges as a function of r, and the constant of integration can be determined from the initial condition (v, r) = (0, 0).

(Edit: Parkinson's typing...)

'Luthon64
 
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if you can still remember how to draw a force diagram, the force acting on the chain is rgD, where D is a constant in kilogram / meters (the "density" of the chain).

The mass to be shifted by this force is RD.

The acceleration of the chain is therefore given by:

r'' = rgD / RD = rg / R

I didn't draw a force (or free body) diagram yesterday, and paid the public price for my impatience. So, anybody who has corrected me that acceleration is proportional to the length of chain over the edge, has got one up on me. Having drawn the diagrams, I'd like to get to where Dr. A. says:

r'' = rg/R, from a mechanical perspective.

The Atwood machine was mentioned. This is a device in which two free-falling blocks, of mass m1 and m2 are connected by a rope over a pulley. So long as the masses are uneven, the system accelerates. The free body diagram of a single block has an upward force T from the rope, and a downward force, mg. The difference is a resultant force, ma.

The equations are:
-m1a1 = T - m1g (assuming m1 is accelerating in the -ve y direction)
m2a2 = T - m2g

In our case, the second mass is supported by the ledge, m2g is balanced by the normal force (I was right there) giving

m2a2 = T

T is uniform and a is uniform throughout the system (again, I did get that right). a1 = a2. Substituting, we get:

-m1a1 = m2a1 - m1g

Which solves to

-a1 (m1 + m2) = -m1g

or

a = m1g / (m1 + m2)

Note that a and m1 are changing all the time, but that (m1 + m2) is a constant RD, as Dr. A. has stated it. m1 is rD. a = r'', thus:

r'' = rDg / RD, D cancels and

r'' = rg/R

which is a differential equation (r'' and r in the same equation), and Dr. A takes it away...

Hence (for some c and d) we have

r = cekt + de-kt
where k is the square root of g / R.

etc.

In short, I suck. Let this be a lesson to anyone doing mechanics: be rigorous, follow the recipes, and don't try to 'imagine' a solution.

:(

ETA: m1 is changing vs m1 + m2 constant.
 
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You have to be a physics idiot to suppose that the two chains would move the same until the 10 meter chain hits bottom.
And once again, you substitute insults rather than make any logical argument whatsoever. What, is the chain over the 10 meter drop going to look down, see the floor and say "Gee, I think I'll fall at a different rate"?

Your ignorance is matched only by your impertinence. Do not, please, attempt to correct your betters.
Why oh why can't you take your own advice?

Oh, and your formula can be simplified to be
r(t)= r(0)cosh(kt)
r'(t)=k*r(0)sinh(kt)
 
Two dimensional physics is hard, so I made a simulation. Enjoy
I did enjoy it. Thanks.

It looks like the falling chains bounce against the vertical side of the cliff. Can you do one where they fall off a ledge that sticks way out, so there's nothing to bounce against?
 
The way I see it there are two forces involved. One is gravity and the other is the stationary mass of the chain. Gravity must move the mass of both chains. Since they are identical the forces on both of them will be the same up to the point that the shorter falling chain hits the ground. At that point the one chain looses mass. As far as I know there is no difference in the rate of acceleration related to mass so both chains will continue to accelerate identically. The speed at which it will travel as the last link leaves the edge is boink boink boink... I think my brain just broke.
 
And once again, you substitute insults rather than make any logical argument whatsoever. What, is the chain over the 10 meter drop going to look down, see the floor and say "Gee, I think I'll fall at a different rate"?
What are you gibbering about?

Oh, and your formula can be simplified to be
r(t)= r(0)cosh(kt)
r'(t)=k*r(0)sinh(kt)
But my further reasoning depends on showing that ce-kT tends to 0 as c tends to 0. If I rewrote the thing as a hyperbolic trig function, this point would be obscured.
 
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Uhm, it seems to me that one of us has misunderstood ImaginalDisc's OP with regard to the reduced drop situation. The way I understand it is that both chains are of equal length (ImaginalDisc says as much) ...
Oh, so he does.

Yes, I've answered the wrong question.

But damn, isn't the answer beautiful?
 
Also, your derivation can be much simplified if you solve the r" differential equation in terms of r by using the substitution v = r' (differentiations are w.r.t. to time), whence r" = v' = dv/dt = (dv/dr)(dr/dt) = v(dv/dr). The velocity then immediately emerges as a function of r, and the constant of integration can be determined from the initial condition (v, r) = (0, 0).
You're probably right, but I can't pretend that I follow you.

Any piece of mathematical reasoning can be "much simplified" by handwaving and use of the phrase "immediately emerges".
 
What are you gibbering about?
The fact that you have utterly failed to explain how a shorter drop will have any effect prior to the chain reaching the end of it.

But my further reasoning depends on showing that ce-kT tends to 0 as c tends to 0. If I rewrote the thing as a hyperbolic trig function, this point would be obscured.
You could have gone through similar reasoning with cosh, and it would be rather difficult to obscure your point more than it is. Once you get into limits, you can't simply declare that normal algebraic rules work; you have to actually show that they do. So it's a bit hypocritical to refer to "handwaving" in your response to Anacoluthon64.

Example of where normal algebra doesn't work:
S=1+2+4+8...
2S=2+4+8+16...
2S-S=(2+4+8+16...)-(1+2+4+8...)=-1
S=-1
 
The way I see it there are two forces involved. One is gravity and the other is the stationary mass of the chain. Gravity must move the mass of both chains. Since they are identical the forces on both of them will be the same up to the point that the shorter falling chain hits the ground. At that point the one chain looses mass. As far as I know there is no difference in the rate of acceleration related to mass so both chains will continue to accelerate identically.
The point I believe is that although g acceleration remains constant, acceleration of the chain increases more rapidly in the higher cliff example because as time and suspended mass increase more force becomes available to accelerate lesser (inertial) mass. When mass is removed from g acceleration by hitting bottom, available force/time-interval remains constant while mass being accelerated decreases.

The speed at which it will travel as the last link leaves the edge is boink boink boink... I think my brain just broke.
Yeah, my ability to set that up & run the numbers is long since past, too. :o
 
I did enjoy it. Thanks.

It looks like the falling chains bounce against the vertical side of the cliff. Can you do one where they fall off a ledge that sticks way out, so there's nothing to bounce against?

Not entirely. The program really only does rigid body stuff, so if the ledge is too thin then the 'rope' (an non-material constraint that keeps two bodies within a certain distance) connecting the links passes through the ledge and the chain just hangs their. Getting rid of the cliff also allows the chain to get tangled, which combined with the 'rope' causes a large integration error.
 
The point I believe is that although g acceleration remains constant, acceleration of the chain increases more rapidly in the higher cliff example because as time and suspended mass increase more force becomes available to accelerate lesser (inertial) mass. When mass is removed from g acceleration by hitting bottom, available force/time-interval remains constant while mass being accelerated decreases.


Yeah, my ability to set that up & run the numbers is long since past, too. :o
I see so the shorter chain has less mass to overcome the inertial forces on the remaining chain thus pulls it off the edge slower.
 
Example of where normal algebra doesn't work:
S=1+2+4+8...
2S=2+4+8+16...
2S-S=(2+4+8+16...)-(1+2+4+8...)=-1
S=-1

I don't know that much math, but this is interesting. Could you explain step 3, above?
How do you get -1? I can't see any way that (2+4+8...)-(1+2+4...) could give a finite number. But I don't know anything about infinite sets and doing arithmetic with them...
Which seems to be the point you're making. It'd just be easier to understand if you could spell out where the -1 comes from.
(If this is very complicated feel free to ignore, I just can't figure it out.)
 
I don't know that much math, but this is interesting. Could you explain step 3, above?
How do you get -1? I can't see any way that (2+4+8...)-(1+2+4...) could give a finite number. But I don't know anything about infinite sets and doing arithmetic with them...
Which seems to be the point you're making. It'd just be easier to understand if you could spell out where the -1 comes from.
(If this is very complicated feel free to ignore, I just can't figure it out.)
What Roboramma said.
I think you may have reversed something.
Please correct our misunderstandings or ... HELP:boxedin:
Originally Posted by Art Vandelay :
Example of where normal algebra doesn't work:
S=1+2+4+8...
2S=2+4+8+16...
2S-S=(2+4+8+16...)-(1+2+4+8...)=-1
S=-1
Are you implying that 2-1=-1?

{grumble, grumble, MODERN MATH, grumble}

Cheers,
Dave

ETA: Besides that, are you claiming that the sum of that series would be unity?

I guess I didn't just miss the boat, but the whole FLEET!:eye-poppi :eek: :jaw-dropp
 
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