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Common Sense

JimBenArm said,

"So, how did you time the collapse? Seriously, what did you use as the start point, and end point? How long did it take?Let's see your calculations."

gravy said,

"Let's see your calculations. And wash your socks, please. They're stinky"

Ok here goes, and lets keep it simple and I will tilt it strongly in your favor.

What we got is a 100 story building.....
lets eliminate thousands of welded steel brackets that support the floor trusses and instead.....

.....every floor is suspended by glass brackets or wires..something that will break or snap if slightly overloaded....in your favor...fragile as you want it to be!

Now for the floors,hmmm..... lets use something that wont break up into little dust particles everytime it contacts the floor below,it will simplify our calculations by eliminating the quite considerable loss of momentum tranfer that is involved in turning the concrete to dust. plus not having any dust will add to the falling mass which is again in your favor....

and we can put contact cement on the floors so they will stick together when they come into contact.(less calculating)

One thing I will not give you though..... is the top twelve floors lumped together into one solid mass...no way man, the NIST may be attempting to do that but....no way!

I certainly observed that a large block of 12 floors on tower #2 (more on #1) somehow just separated from 98 storys below but,....

The lowest floor of the upper 12 storys (#99)is Not gonna be any "stronger"than highest floor (#98)of the lower 98 storys. in other words,..when floor 99 comes into contact with 98, they will BOTH break loose from the core and perimeter columns.....remember our glass brackets? problem wit dat? I didnt think so...

Ok so, its up to the top (imagine a dunking machine, naked chick throwing..)I will sit on my rubber floor,you on yours.

I have 98 rubber floors (each 12 feet apart) between me and the ground

you have 1 rubber floor and a (lot of hot) air between you and the ground

she throws!.. BAM!!! we begin falling....and thusly through observation we finally begin our calculations.

we both proceed down at the same rate,as we both knew we would... for twelve feet its a dead heat!(even though you are probably fatter than me), then BAM!! I'll be dipped in ****!!! it seems I have hit something!... another floor! #97 of course!....my downward acceleration has slowed! while you have continued on... and although I now have TWO floors falling with me, my velocity downward has been cut in half!(you are traveling 32 feet per second and I am going only 16 feet per second) and that is because mass at rest has resistance! even only held in place by fragile clips! get the picture yet? are you doing the math? No?

well lets go another twelve feet....Bam!!!! Damn its floor 96!!....damn those things get in the way! (as you continue on your merry unimpeded way) because I have two floors with me and we are slamming down onto one, my downward velocity is reduced by?.....you guessed it! one third or 33.333333333...% do you see where we are going yet? now do you get the picture? no?

OK, lets review. floor by floor

I'm on floor 98

I fall 12 feet and reach a speed of 32 ft per/sec

I hit floor 97 and slow down by 1/2 to 16 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 16fps.=48fps

I hit floor 96 and slow down by 1/3 to 32 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 32fps.=64fps

I hit floor 95 and slow down by 1/4 to 48 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 48fps.=80fps

I hit floor 94 and slow down by 1/5 to 64 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 64fps.=96fps

I hit floor 93 and slow down by 1/6 to 80 fps and continue...

I fall and just before I hit floor 92 I am going at 112 feet per sec...

You on the other hand...gain 32 fps every 12 feet!

your on floor 98

you fall 12 feet=32fps @ floor 97

you fall 12 feet=64fps @ floor 96

you fall 12 feet=96fps @ floor 95

you fall 12 feet=128fps@ floor 94

you fall 12 feet=160fps@ floor 93

you fall 12 feet=192fps@ floor 92

results @ floor 92= me! 112 feet per sec!!!
you! 192 feet per sec!!!

need I go on?

Keep in mind I gave this to you on a silver platter with fragile truss clips and solid floors that dont break up...all in your favor...and we still cant get anything near a 12-13 second collapse....JREFFERS are stupid...

I used better numbers and only had a 10 percent decrease in time vs dropping a massive ball from the point of failure.

What time did you get!

But now time it yourself; the WTC took over 30 seconds to fall completely. You must of missed the core sections. Plus you missed the mass of WTC destroying the rest and not falling at speeds of debris out side the foot print of the WTC.

So what is your time to fall?

Recap! I found about a 10 percent increase in time! What did you find. But I used the energy lost due to tearing up the WTC. What are you using.

Funny you never really timed the collapse did you! What time did you get?

Go get some help from your physics teacher.
 
One thing I will not give you though..... is the top twelve floors lumped together into one solid mass...no way man, the NIST may be attempting to do that but....no way!

But that is what happened; I saw something like that happen! Darn, who would say this? A CTer!
 
One thing I will not give you though..... is the top twelve floors lumped together into one solid mass...no way man, the NIST may be attempting to do that but....no way!

Actually if you use that mass you get the correct time of failure, but you need to add the other complex failure; IE a big section of core fell after, or by 30 or so seconds. Darn, how do you model that extra time.

Facts are needed to prove wrong what really happen. Most saw what really happened. There were no explosives in the building because some people lived through the entire collapse around the fifth floor! Explosives would have ruined their survival area.

There were no explosives found. No one rigged the WTC with explosives. Unless you have some facts you are lost in the CT world of lies.

You have to at least model what everyone saw. If you do not you have zero common sense in applying your physics. You twist your math to meet your conclusion. So you fail to model the WTC as it happened.

60 to 80 floors of partial core standing at the end of failure pretty much proves explosives were not used to me. What do you think natureboy? .
 
The collapse is entirely consistent with structural engineering expectations.
 
I should have tried that in my finals, instead of all that damned work and studying..........could have just stayed in the Students Union drinking!
 
Now I know why I don;t normally participate here...


8 pages?


Apparently they can manufacture nonsense quicker than I can assimilate it.
 
Common sense also tells us the evil perps would have neutralized the Truthers by now, instead of letting them spill the beans for all these years. But that's probably the wrong kind of common sense.
 
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You on the other hand...gain 32 fps every 12 feet!

your on floor 98

you fall 12 feet=32fps @ floor 97

you fall 12 feet=64fps @ floor 96

you fall 12 feet=96fps @ floor 95

you fall 12 feet=128fps@ floor 94

you fall 12 feet=160fps@ floor 93

you fall 12 feet=192fps@ floor 92

results @ floor 92= me! 112 feet per sec!!!
you! 192 feet per sec!!!

Is this for real? I fall 12 feet and gain 32fps? Boy, things have sure changed since I went to school! Dude, you obviously have no clue how gravitational acceleration works. This shows it, in all its naked glory! I have never seen such a poor grasp of math in my life! Come back when you are ready to play with the big boys. You're not ready to get out of the shallow end of the pool, yet.

Believe me, if I can spot your errors, you have serious problems!
 
Another technology devised by the U.S. military for remote control of huge airplanes is named Global Hawk.
Wrong, the Q-4 Global Hawk is 1/4th the length of a 767 (44ft vs 160ft) and you can fit exactly zero people and zero pounds of equipment inside. It's barely 11 feet tall, 15 at the tail. It's also the biggest UAV in service. Or maybe they used a retrofit drone, taking an old fighter and putting in a drone package, a process that takes a few weeks and generally results in a on shot, single function flight: as a target for missiles.

On April 24, 2001, four months before "'9/11,'" Britain's International Television News reported: "A robot plane has made aviation history by becoming the first unmanned aircraft to fly across the Pacific Ocean."
And? Are you shocked by the existence of drone aircraft? They've kind of been in the news lately and the US has been using them for testing missiles for decades. Most drones have flight times >30 hours.

The former Minister of Technology said: '"The Americans had developed a method in the 1970s, whereby they could rescue hijacked planes by intervening into the computer piloting."'
A prototype or theoretical system, no doubt, and not something that Boeing includes on their aircraft as standard equipment or American Airlines puts in later. Maybe the pilots just missed all that mechanical equipment in the cockpit when the got aboard.
 
What commonly known information are you applying to this situation - that would lead you to believe this?

The the sun revolves around the earth ? Easy. We see it rise and set every day. There is no visual information outside of science to tell us otherwise.

Common Sense is not about believing what your eyes tell you. Common Sense is a sense beyond your five senses...

A sense beyond your five senses ? Isn't it fun to redefine terms when you're cornered ?

although it uses certain information from those (5) senses in order to form a higher intuitive-like sense.

Ah. Intuition. The mother of religion.

What are you applying to this scenario? The common belief that humans need oxygen to live, thus everything must need oxygen to live? But, fish aren't human...and neither are deep-sea creatures.

They still breathe oxygen, mate.

Has a false flag operation ever happened in the world? Yes.

Relevance ?

Now, does everyone (CTist and/or Gov Shills) believe that planted explosives could have brought down the towers? Yes.

Of course. The question is: is the evidence consistent with such a demolition ? And : how would those explosives have been placed ?

I want you one on one in our own thread... and if you choose to decline my challenge, than you concede defeat by virtue of cowardice.

That's concede victory, not defeat.

Excellent. I also challenge you to a 1-on-1 DOOM duel at my place, today at 6 pm. If you're not there at 6, then you concede VICTORY, not defeat, by virtue of cowardice.

Architect said:
Mes amis americanes

That's: Mes amis Américains.

So what makes the - 9/11 is an Inside Job Belief - such an unbelievable one?

Lack of evidence, lack of feasibility, lack of internal coherency, etc.

I am asking what makes it impossible for professionally trained military agents to plant explosives in buildings...

Time.

Please, shed yer ego and remove that red, white and blue war paint from yer face

I'm a Canadian, you dolt. Why should I care about your government, especially Mr. Bush ?
 
Everyone thinks the WTC collapses look like explosives are being used...

I don't.

including the major news anchors who covered the events i.e. Dan Rather and Peter Jennings.

Well, if Jennings says it... :rolleyes:

How does the supreme authority of a land "get caught?" How does Saddam Hussein "get caught" gassing his own people? How does the Chinese government "get caught" abusing its own people? Who are the ones responsible for catching them?

Ah, so you're a hero of the people, now ?

Okay, documented history... the founders of America slaughtered innocent indians and stole their land. Americans have a history of terrorist activity... History shows us that great powers are invariably corrupt and evil. The US is the richest and most powerful nation in the history of the world... 1 + 1 =

THAT's your evidence ? 9/11 was an inside job because the US is a powerful country that was founded by conquest ?

Is it possible to have a belief that differs from what the government says is true and not be a crazy person?

I see you're not going to answer any of those questions, are you ?

Still waiting on your answer, also: are you a psychologist ? Do you have any training in the field ?

Your sig says it all:

When I die.. I shall soar with angels. And, when I die to the angels.. what I shall become - you cannot imagine.
 
Common sense also tells us the evil perps would have neutralized the Truthers by now, instead of letting them spill the beans for all these years. But that's probably the wrong kind of common sense.

Agree, and I think that is a fact that should be stated more often. If the US governement really murdered 3000 of their own citizens they sure would't think twice about killing a few more to cover it up. Yet the troof movement seems quite healthy (well, maybe not always in the mental departement)

Imagine the hysteria if Dylan or any other major troofer would manage to get himself killed or injured in at traffic accident.
 
Please forgive me the "Quote message in reply" chekbox is not working for me. maybe cuz i'm a new member?

And is "new member" your excuse for not noticing the big button labelled "Quote" in the lower right corner?
 
It's just a plot to make people think I'm Welsh and search for our Sooper Sekrit base inside a dormant Volcano in the Rhonda.



That's why we've set Torchwood in Wales, too.........

Is that also why they're the least competent sooper sekrit agency in the history of television? I put their civilian bodycount to save ratio at around 20:0, not including the many poor saps killed by that unconvincing CGI goat (that THEY released!) in the last episode...
 
JimBenArm said,

"So, how did you time the collapse? Seriously, what did you use as the start point, and end point? How long did it take?Let's see your calculations."

gravy said,

"Let's see your calculations. And wash your socks, please. They're stinky"

Ok here goes, and lets keep it simple and I will tilt it strongly in your favor.

What we got is a 100 story building.....
lets eliminate thousands of welded steel brackets that support the floor trusses and instead.....

.....every floor is suspended by glass brackets or wires..something that will break or snap if slightly overloaded....in your favor...fragile as you want it to be!

Now for the floors,hmmm..... lets use something that wont break up into little dust particles everytime it contacts the floor below,it will simplify our calculations by eliminating the quite considerable loss of momentum tranfer that is involved in turning the concrete to dust. plus not having any dust will add to the falling mass which is again in your favor....

and we can put contact cement on the floors so they will stick together when they come into contact.(less calculating)

One thing I will not give you though..... is the top twelve floors lumped together into one solid mass...no way man, the NIST may be attempting to do that but....no way!

I certainly observed that a large block of 12 floors on tower #2 (more on #1) somehow just separated from 98 storys below but,....

The lowest floor of the upper 12 storys (#99)is Not gonna be any "stronger"than highest floor (#98)of the lower 98 storys. in other words,..when floor 99 comes into contact with 98, they will BOTH break loose from the core and perimeter columns.....remember our glass brackets? problem wit dat? I didnt think so...

Ok so, its up to the top (imagine a dunking machine, naked chick throwing..)I will sit on my rubber floor,you on yours.

I have 98 rubber floors (each 12 feet apart) between me and the ground

you have 1 rubber floor and a (lot of hot) air between you and the ground

she throws!.. BAM!!! we begin falling....and thusly through observation we finally begin our calculations.

we both proceed down at the same rate,as we both knew we would... for twelve feet its a dead heat!(even though you are probably fatter than me), then BAM!! I'll be dipped in ****!!! it seems I have hit something!... another floor! #97 of course!....my downward acceleration has slowed! while you have continued on... and although I now have TWO floors falling with me, my velocity downward has been cut in half!(you are traveling 32 feet per second and I am going only 16 feet per second) and that is because mass at rest has resistance! even only held in place by fragile clips! get the picture yet? are you doing the math? No?

well lets go another twelve feet....Bam!!!! Damn its floor 96!!....damn those things get in the way! (as you continue on your merry unimpeded way) because I have two floors with me and we are slamming down onto one, my downward velocity is reduced by?.....you guessed it! one third or 33.333333333...% do you see where we are going yet? now do you get the picture? no?

OK, lets review. floor by floor

I'm on floor 98

I fall 12 feet and reach a speed of 32 ft per/sec

I hit floor 97 and slow down by 1/2 to 16 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 16fps.=48fps

I hit floor 96 and slow down by 1/3 to 32 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 32fps.=64fps

I hit floor 95 and slow down by 1/4 to 48 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 48fps.=80fps

I hit floor 94 and slow down by 1/5 to 64 fps and continue...

I fall 12 feet...I have gained another 32 fps to add to my 64fps.=96fps

I hit floor 93 and slow down by 1/6 to 80 fps and continue...

I fall and just before I hit floor 92 I am going at 112 feet per sec...

You on the other hand...gain 32 fps every 12 feet!

your on floor 98

you fall 12 feet=32fps @ floor 97

you fall 12 feet=64fps @ floor 96

you fall 12 feet=96fps @ floor 95

you fall 12 feet=128fps@ floor 94

you fall 12 feet=160fps@ floor 93

you fall 12 feet=192fps@ floor 92

results @ floor 92= me! 112 feet per sec!!!
you! 192 feet per sec!!!

need I go on?

Keep in mind I gave this to you on a silver platter with fragile truss clips and solid floors that dont break up...all in your favor...and we still cant get anything near a 12-13 second collapse....JREFFERS are stupid...

The height of the top floor of the towers was 1,348 ft (411.0 m).
The height of the root of the towers was 1,368 ft (417.0 m).
The height of the antenna/spire of the towers was 1,731.9 ft (527.9 m)
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wtc
Given the approximate acceleration at the towers would be 9.8 m/s^2 we can calculate both the time it would take to fall, and the velocity at any given point.
Using the formulas available on this page: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/mofall.html we generate the following (bolded lines are of greatest interest):
[table=""]Time|Accel - m/sec^2|Dist - meters
0.0|9.8|0.0
1.0|9.8|4.9
2.0|19.6|19.6
3.0|29.4|44.1
4.0|39.2|78.4
5.0|49.0|122.5
6.0|58.8|176.4
7.0|68.6|240.1
8.0|78.4|313.6
9.0|88.2|396.9
9.1|89.2|405.8
9.2|90.2|414.7
9.3|91.1|423.8
9.4|92.1|433.0
9.5|93.1|442.2
9.6|94.1|451.6
9.7|95.1|461.0
9.8|96.0|470.6
9.9|97.0|480.2
10.0|98.0|490.0
10.1|99.0|499.8
10.2|100.0|509.8
10.3|100.9|519.8
10.4|101.9|530.0
10.5|102.9|540.2
10.6|103.9|550.6
10.7|104.9|561.0
10.8|105.8|571.5
10.9|106.8|582.2
11.0|107.8|592.9| || |[/table]
From this we can see that from the top floor it would take 9.1-9.2 seconds to reach the ground and the final velocity would be 89.2-90.2 m/sec.
From the root it would take 9.2-9.3 seconds to reach the ground and the final velocity would be 90.2-91.1 m/sec.
From the top of the spire/antenna it would take 10.3-10.4 seconds to reach the ground and the final velocity would be 100.9-101.9 m/sec.

Estimates on this vary do to visibility problems and which points are being used. I will use the values you provided in this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2206211#post2206211 and go with 12-16 seconds.
[table=""]Reported Time|Calculated Time|%
12.0|9.1|131.9
12.0|9.2|130.4
12.0|9.3|129.0
12.0|10.3|116.5
12.0|10.4|115.4
13.0|9.1|142.9
13.0|9.2|141.3
13.0|9.3|139.8
13.0|10.3|126.2
13.0|10.4|125.0
14.0|9.1|153.8
14.0|9.2|152.2
14.0|9.3|150.5
14.0|10.3|135.9
14.0|10.4|134.6
15.0|9.1|164.8
15.0|9.2|163.0
15.0|9.3|161.3
15.0|10.3|145.6
15.0|10.4|144.2
16.0|9.1|175.8
16.0|9.2|173.9
16.0|9.3|172.0
16.0|10.3|155.3
16.0|10.4|153.8| || |[/table]
We can see that the towers took somewhere between 115.4% to 175.8% free-fall time to complete collapsing. Personally, I do not consider 15.4%-75.8% margin of difference to qualify as being labeled "near".

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf Section
2.2.1.1
American Airlines Flight 11 struck the north face of WTC 1 approximately between the 94th and
98th floors
2.2.1.5
Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4x10^11 joules of potential energy over the
1,368-foot height of the structure. Of this, approximately 8x10^9 joules of potential energy were stored in the
upper part of the structure, above the impact floors, relative to the lowest point of impact.
2.2.2.1
United Airlines Flight 175 struck the south face of WTC 2 approximately between the 78th and 84th
floors.
For WTC 1, the top 12 floors of the tower translates into 8x10^9 joules of the total 4x10^11 joules. So, the top ~10.9% of WTC 1 contained ~2% of the entire PE of WTC 1. Extrapolating this on to WTC 2 (since the above mentioned report does not specify the amount PE contained above the WTC 2 impact point) we get the following:
WTC 2 => top 26 floors => ~23.6% of WTC 2.
If ~10.9% of WTC 1 translates into 8x10^9 joules PE
Then ~23.6% of WTC 2 translates into N joules PE
Therefore 10.9/8*10^9 = 23.6/N
=> 10.9*N/8*10^9 = 23.6
=> 10.9*N = 23.6*(8*10^9)
=> N = 23.6*(8*10^9)/10.9
=> N = 17321100917.431192660550458715596
=> N = 17.3*10^9 joules PE
=> ~34.7% of the entire PE of WTC 2
What does this mean? It means for WTC 1, that ~2% (8x10^9 joules) of PE was converted to KE almost instantaneously upon structural failure at floors 94-98. It means for WTC 2, that ~34.7% (17.3*10^9 joules) of PE was converted to KE almost instantaneously upon structural failure at floors 78-84.
If you feel this is insufficient to explain the damage seen, please provide your maths showing why.
<snip>
Original post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2207994#post2207994
 

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