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Gavinimurthy

Thinker
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
155
Key Conclusions

• Homeopathic remedies are spectroscopically distinct from the original solvent (water/ ethanol).

• Different potencies can be distinctly distinguished by the UV-VIS and the Raman spectra.

• Nat Mur and Nux Vomica are distinctly different while the same potencies with different succussion also show a clear evidence of difference in the structure of the individual samples.

• No studies /claims whatsoever on the clinical effects of the remedies are made.

http://www.rustumroy.com/May 16th Webinar.pdf

Murthy
 
I see no mention of a peer reviewed paper or double blinding procedures.
 
They're talking about polymerized water. Water doesn't polymerize.

They hang great importance on the fact that their homeopathic samples show different spectroscopic readings to the pure solvent. For this to be meaningful, however, they would have to first show that the samples are chemically pure solvent. The best way to do that is with spectroscopic analysis...

Long story short, their samples are contaminated, and the whole thing is utter nonsense.
 
I spent a little more time on it. It's still utter nonsense.

They propose variations in the structure of water polymers as a mechanism for homeopathic effects without first establishing that water polymerizes. (It doesn't.)

Then they suggest that this is shown by the variations in the spectroscopic signatures of the samples, without testing control samples of known water polymers, which they can't do, because water doesn't polymerize.

As Wollery points out, the study wasn't blinded. Normally you might not need to blind a spectroscopic analysis, but when it comes to homeopathy, it would be a good idea.

There are no controls. None.

What they do have, in abundance, are unsupported (or known false) assumptions and appeals to authority.
 
Furthermore, the guy giving the talk is the editor-in-chief of the journal which published the research (yes, I'm sorry, it was published research) which proudly states;

Because of its super peer review procedures, the journal is especially suited for the publication of results which are so new, so unexpected, that they are likely to be rejected by tradition-bound journals. Presumptive authors are invited to submit papers covering non-traditional topics at the frontier of science and technology and their management.

http://www.maney.co.uk/search?fwaction=show&fwid=705

Of course, it doesn't say what these super peer review procedures actually are.

In other words, "If no genuine scientific journal will publish your crap send it to us, because we'll publish anything that we like."
 
Determination of the concentration of a Bryonia Dioica tincture by Raman spectroscopy
Irimie Milea and E. Culea
Technical Univ. of Cluj (Romania)
T. Iliescu
Babes-Bolyai Univ. (Romania)
Janetta Milea
Pediatric Clinic II (Romania)


It was established a method based on Raman spectroscopy in order to control the content and concentration of homeopathic dilutions. Dilutions of a tincture of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol were prepared and investigated by Raman spectroscopy. The Raman line at 881 cm-1 was found to depend linearly versus the concentration of Bryonia Dioica. This permits to obtain a calibration curve that may be used to determine the concentration of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol. The method may be extended to determine the concentration of various homeopathic dilutions.

©2004 COPYRIGHT SPIE--The International Society for Optical Engineering. Downloading of the abstract is permitted for personal use only.


http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=norm al&id=PSISDG002461000001000347000001&idtype=cvips&am p;gifs=yes

Murthy
 
Raman spectroscopy used to identify counterfeit drugs

In our rankings of the world's most evil criminals, we include child molesters, mass murderers, and serial rapists near the top. Yet there is one group we place even higher, for their crimes are motivated solely by the profit motive, unlike the others who are driven mainly by more psychologically complex intentions. We are speaking of counterfeit drug manufacturers and dealers -- those who package useless chemicals in the form of well known AIDS and cancer medications. (We exclude the homeopathic industry, for now.) Such charlatans do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication. Many others die because the counterfeit drugs contain dangerous impurities.

Fortunately, scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in Didcot, United Kingdom have developed a method of identifying fakes while concealed within their packaging. (A legitimate-looking wrapper is far more important to the criminal's plans than a authentic looking pill.)

http://hsdailywire.com/showNews.php?SID&NL=hsdw_v3n21_Feb-01-2007.htm#article3271

Murthy


Gavinimurthy, I have redacted part of the article; in the future, please post only excerpts and the link in order to avoid copyright violations.

Thanks
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Determination of the concentration of a Bryonia Dioica tincture by Raman spectroscopy
Irimie Milea and E. Culea
Technical Univ. of Cluj (Romania)
T. Iliescu
Babes-Bolyai Univ. (Romania)
Janetta Milea
Pediatric Clinic II (Romania)


It was established a method based on Raman spectroscopy in order to control the content and concentration of homeopathic dilutions. Dilutions of a tincture of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol were prepared and investigated by Raman spectroscopy. The Raman line at 881 cm-1 was found to depend linearly versus the concentration of Bryonia Dioica. This permits to obtain a calibration curve that may be used to determine the concentration of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol. The method may be extended to determine the concentration of various homeopathic dilutions.

©2004 COPYRIGHT SPIE--The International Society for Optical Engineering. Downloading of the abstract is permitted for personal use only.


http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=norm al&id=PSISDG002461000001000347000001&idtype=cvips&am p;gifs=yes

Murthy

Murthy, do you understand why this has absolutely NOTHING to do with homeopathy? And I mean NOTHING AT ALL?

If you do understand, why do we need to read this simple report?

If you don't understand, perhaps you should do some basic education for yourself and study until you DO understand.
 
Raman spectroscopy used to identify counterfeit drugs

In our rankings of the world's most evil criminals, we include child molesters, mass murderers, and serial rapists near the top. Yet there is one group we place even higher, for their crimes are motivated solely by the profit motive, unlike the others who are driven mainly by more psychologically complex intentions. We are speaking of counterfeit drug manufacturers and dealers -- those who package useless chemicals in the form of well known AIDS and cancer medications. (We exclude the homeopathic industry, for now.) Such charlatans do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication. Many others die because the counterfeit drugs contain dangerous impurities.

Fortunately, scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in Didcot, United Kingdom have developed a method of identifying fakes while concealed within their packaging. (A legitimate-looking wrapper is far more important to the criminal's plans than a authentic looking pill.) As with many advanced detection systems these days, the Rutherford detector uses a variant of Raman spectroscopy. This approach uses laser light to collect infrared reflections from sample chemicals, each of which emits a unique range of frequencies, producing a unique spectral fingerprint for that substance that is collected at the exact point were the laser is focused. Up until now, however, this approach was useless if the chemicals being detected were encased in packaging.

To overcome this, the Rutherford researchers modified their spectrometer to collect the reflected signal at a slight distance from the point where the laser is focused. According to New Scientist, "this works because Raman signals generated deep within a sample shift sideways slightly before exiting the surface, unlike those generated on the surface itself. The signal from the packaging surface is effectively diluted, while that from the drug inside is amplified." The idea is to go in sideways and avoid the blinding signal from the surface. The scientists have successfully tested the method on paracetamol and ibuprofen, both in blister packs and plastic containers.

-read more in Andy Coghlan's New Scientist report

http://hsdailywire.com/showNews.php?SID&NL=hsdw_v3n21_Feb-01-2007.htm#article3271

Murthy

Murthy,

Again, can I ask if you understand ANYTHING that you have posted here? How and why does it relate to homeopathy? (Here's a clue: It doesn't.)
 
Rustum's lecture has some wonderful "pictures" of H2O polymers.

The captions read as follows:
The enormous variety of structures of the molecules in which almost certainly the chemical entity H2O can exist. The well known H2O monomer with its precisely defined tetrahedral angle is shown on the top left and below it a series of dimers, trimers, tetramers which can be constructed on paper from the relatively rigid H2O molecule.
This figure shows some of the larger polyhedra which are presumed to exist.

In other words, he just made it all up.
I am just surprised he admits he just drew them on a bit of paper and doesn’t opt for the usual woo formula of “multidimensional energy fractal integrative computer modelling”.
 
I am just surprised he admits he just drew them on a bit of paper and doesn’t opt for the usual woo formula of “multidimensional energy fractal integrative computer modelling”.

I believe those at the front of the field now rely on multidimensional energy fractal integrative quantum computer modelling, which of course can be accelerated by facing magnetic north.
 
Rustrum Roy is the new hero of the homeopathic community, so we'd better wade through his stuff and get the debunkery ready, because this is not the last we're gonna hear about it.

Hi Murthy, btw.

Hans
 
Murthy, do you understand why this has absolutely NOTHING to do with homeopathy? And I mean NOTHING AT ALL?

If you do understand, why do we need to read this simple report?

If you don't understand, perhaps you should do some basic education for yourself and study until you DO understand.

The word homeopathy is mentioned in the report. Not by me.

Murthy
 
As Wollery points out, the study wasn't blinded. Normally you might not need to blind a spectroscopic analysis, but when it comes to homeopathy, it would be a good idea.

There are no controls. None.
Normally, you wouldn't require contols in a physics experiment, but spectroscopy is special, because it is so sensitive that it can detect extremely minute amounts of substances (in principle, single molecules). Even if you don't think reporting bias is an issue, you need to make calibration controls, because otherwise you don't really know what you are detecting.

Hans
 

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