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Comcast caught paying off seat fillers at hearing

My little brother was telling me about the Save The Internet campaign. I hope they're successful.
 
Everyone? If it's good for everyone why would some companies be against it?

Haha, everyone but the top few companies who want control over what material receives bandwidth and what material doesn't. I don't factor them into my consideration, after all even with net neutrality what they've got is a level playing field... hardly punishment.
 
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Haha, everyone but the top few companies who want control over what material receives bandwidth and what material doesn't. I don't factor them into my consideration, after all even with net neutrality what they've got is a level playing field... hardly punishment.
So it's good for everyone except those you would exclude from consideration. Yes lots of policies are like that.
 
Let's just say it is in the interests of the general public that the internet is neutral.

How would you like it if, for example, the JREF took money from AT&T to be available exclusively for AT&T customers? Try to access the site with any other company and you don't connect! Now imagine this is happening all over the place... now when you pick an ISP speed and reliability isn't your only consideration. Now the actual web sites you can access will have to be weighed.

This is an incredibly stupid idea.
 
Let's just say it is in the interests of the general public that the internet is neutral.
I agree with that. But a "neutral" internet is not a "free" internet.

How would you like it if, for example, the JREF took money from AT&T to be available exclusively for AT&T customers? Try to access the site with any other company and you don't connect! Now imagine this is happening all over the place... now when you pick an ISP speed and reliability isn't your only consideration. Now the actual web sites you can access will have to be weighed.
Well I wouldn't access the board since AT&T doesn't provide services in my country. However I am not sure that AT&T should be forbidden from acting how it chooses, any more than your newstand can decide which titles to sell.
 
However I am not sure that AT&T should be forbidden from acting how it chooses, any more than your newstand can decide which titles to sell.
Absolutely. And if they don't want to allow access to the whole internet they can buy newstands instead, and get out of the internet business.
 
So it's good for everyone except those you would exclude from consideration.

Operating on a level-playing field is not a punishment. If completely monopolizing what your users are allowed to view is what you require to succeed you've got problems.

You do understand that the free exchange of information is completely irrelevant to these organizations unless it ends with a purchase of their/an affiliate product or service?

The massive importance of the internet as a tool for information exchange >>>> a few people's desire to control and thus more thoroughly drain the pockets of their huge customer base.

The great thing about current circumstances is what we can do both! People can choose what they do online! How perfect!
 
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Absolutely. And if they don't want to allow access to the whole internet they can buy newstands instead, and get out of the internet business.
Should no private operator be allowed to regulate the internet content it provides, in its own interest?

Operating on a level-playing field is not a punishment. If completely monopolizing what your users are allowed to view is what you require to succeed you've got problems.
I agree it isn't punishment. However it is likely than enforcing open access by service providers will reduce the potential for them to profit. I think that is reasonable as well, but am under no illusion that it is anything but an interference in free-market forces, made in the interest of society.

You do understand that the free exchange of information is completely irrelevant to these organizations unless it ends with a purchase of their/an affiliate product or service?
Yes, but they are not providing a public service.

The massive importance of the internet as a tool for information exchange >>>> a few people's desire to control and thus more thoroughly drain the pockets of their huge customer base.
You identify a need for government regulation. The challenge that a free-marketeer would make to this is that the internet service that is most valuable to "everyone" would be one that emerges when private operators are allowed to do whatever they like, and that a government that messes with this would result in an inferior internet. I am throwing this up as a "devil's advocate" argument rather than a personal position. :)
 
Should no private operator be allowed to regulate the internet content it provides, in its own interest?
Their interest is getting as many subscribers as they can. If they can't do that without manipulating the market they can do something else. Nobody is forcing them to be ISP's, if they don't like the rules they can open up a string of newstands.

This isn't that hard to understand, is it?
 
Their interest is getting as many subscribers as they can. If they can't do that without manipulating the market they can do something else. Nobody is forcing them to be ISP's, if they don't like the rules they can open up a string of newstands.

This isn't that hard to understand, is it?
What rules? Are there already laws about net neutrality? I don't think there are

Whether it is "manipulating the market" is open to interpretation and to judicial rulings about monopoly power. If--for the sake of argument--an internet provider does not have monopoly power then, I argue that it is not market manipulation for it to be non-neutral in what it provides.
 
What rules? Are there already laws about net neutrality? I don't think there are
The rules they're trying to shove down everyones throat.

Whether it is "manipulating the market" is open to interpretation and to judicial rulings about monopoly power. If--for the sake of argument--an internet provider does not have monopoly power then, I argue that it is not market manipulation for it to be non-neutral in what it provides.
The internet existed before Comcast and AT&T decided to get into the business. If they don't want to be ISPs they don't have to. But when they jump in late in the game and want to change the rules for their purposes we have the right to tell them to shove off.
 
The rules they're trying to shove down everyones throat.
I don't understand. There are no "rules" about net neutrality. Comcast et al are not trying to shove any rules down anyone's throat except perhaps one about being able to make their own decisions within the law, which is an extant rule.

The internet existed before Comcast and AT&T decided to get into the business. If they don't want to be ISPs they don't have to.
You keep saying this but patently they do want to be ISPs so this is a non-sequitur. The internet's pre-existence, and what Tim Berners-Lee's vision was, do not bind in the absolute anything that new entrants can do.

But when they jump in late in the game and want to change the rules for their purposes we have the right to tell them to shove off.
You have not identified any (legally binding) rule that anyone is changing. Of course you can tell them to shove off. What I don't think you can do right now is force them to be net neutral just because you'd like it.

And, to repeat, I would like it too, but I think that neutrality will be provided by those looking to meet demand rather than because of rules--that do not exist now--being brought in
 
I don't understand. There are no "rules" about net neutrality. Comcast et al are not trying to shove any rules down anyone's throat except perhaps one about being able to make their own decisions within the law, which is an extant rule.

You keep saying this but patently they do want to be ISPs so this is a non-sequitur. The internet's pre-existence, and what Tim Berners-Lee's vision was, do not bind in the absolute anything that new entrants can do.

You have not identified any (legally binding) rule that anyone is changing. Of course you can tell them to shove off. What I don't think you can do right now is force them to be net neutral just because you'd like it.

And, to repeat, I would like it too, but I think that neutrality will be provided by those looking to meet demand rather than because of rules--that do not exist now--being brought in
The point is to make law that ensures a free and open internet. That is why we have the bipartisan “Internet Freedom Preservation Act 2008” (HR 5353).

Have you read about the most recent examples of censorship by verizon and comcast? 1 2 3 This does make me wonder if my libertarian ideology coincide with my net neutrality beliefs.
My little brother was telling me about the Save The Internet campaign. I hope they're successful.
The they're you are speaking of is people like you and me. Join the coalition if you think it is just and righteous!
 
I don't buy the "If they won't provide unrestricted access, switch to a company that will" argument. In many areas, the available options are very slim, and generally restricted to one or more of the big telecoms. Allowing one telecom to restrict what internet content you can access allows all telecoms to do so. Since the kind of throttling Comcast has been using helps cut their costs, unless it has a major impact on their subscriber base, it's in their financial interest to continue. If they're allowed to do so, and there's not a scary enough fallout from their customer base, the other big telcoms will almost certainly follow suit.

"What about other companies," you ask? At least in my area, I am unaware of any (non-dialup) internet providers other than Comcast and Verizon. They are established, have customer loyalty, brand recognition, and a developed infrastructure. How is a smaller company going to compete with that? As it stands, cable companies have near-monopolies in many areas. In at least some areas, they even own the cables. Try starting a competing company there - you'd either need to lay your own cables (huge capital investment) or convince the local telcom that it's a good idea to rent bandwidth to an attempted competitor (good luck with that).

"Free market" solutions don't work well (if at all) under conditions like these. They generally require that it's feasible for a startup to move in and successfully compete with the established local companies, and that the startup remain viable despite not taking the path of least resistance.

Potential problems with a non-neutral internet:
1) Service blocking (like the BitTorrent protocol block) - Some uses of your internet connection (as in applications, not home vs. commercial) are suddenly forbidden or tightly restricted; "Lightning-fast download speeds, as long as you don't try to move any large files."
2) Content blocking/restriction - The speed with which online content is delivered varies based on some criterion. Perhaps websites that the company doesn't like are blocked? Maybe on top of paying for their hosting bandwidth, websites now have to pay each ISP a fee to be shown to the ISPs' customers, and/or pay extra to be delivered at full speed? Suddenly, BigCompany.com loads nigh-instantaneously, but SmallCompany.com takes several minutes, despite having bandwidth to spare, all because Big Company can pay the surfer's ISP more money.

Here's a somewhat analagous hypothetical situation:
1) The auto companies decide that they're paying out too much on warrantee-covered maintenance, and they have to reduce the wear and tear on the cars they sell. Their solution? Whenever any car they built tries to drive on the highway, it automatically takes the first available exit. Actually, to be accurate to the Comcast situation, the car would also have to attempt to convince the driver that there was some sort of problem with the highway, and they thus had to take the side streets, and the manufacturer would have to deny all of this, even after a major newspaper had proven it was happening.
2) To increase revenues, the auto companies decide to go to the national/state/local government or private party that owns each road and/or driveway and demand money from them. Cars refuse to be driven on the roads of those that don't pay, or won't go above a fraction of the speed limit on roads whose owners don't pay enough.
 
Have you read about the most recent examples of censorship by verizon and comcast? 1 2 3 This does make me wonder if my libertarian ideology coincide with my net neutrality beliefs.
Can you elaborate because I don't see how a libertarian ideoology can be reconciled with an attempt to force net neutrality without it being a cherry-picked or fairweather libertarian ideology. Thanks
 
I don't buy the "If they won't provide unrestricted access, switch to a company that will" argument. In many areas, the available options are very slim, and generally restricted to one or more of the big telecoms. Allowing one telecom to restrict what internet content you can access allows all telecoms to do so. Since the kind of throttling Comcast has been using helps cut their costs, unless it has a major impact on their subscriber base, it's in their financial interest to continue. If they're allowed to do so, and there's not a scary enough fallout from their customer base, the other big telcoms will almost certainly follow suit.
I agree with you, and this is the right argument IMO. Although this is one area (telecoms and broadband) where I think there is, oddly, more choice and more speed etc. outside the US.

"Free market" solutions don't work well (if at all) under conditions like these. They generally require that it's feasible for a startup to move in and successfully compete with the established local companies, and that the startup remain viable despite not taking the path of least resistance.
Correct. This is why I think telecom providers should be regulated, in ways not a million miles from that of utilities and infrastructure.
 

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