Colon cleansing?

[Barbrae]

Bit of a double standard showing here, I think?

(And if you'd ever seen a patient suffering from a perforated large intestine, you wouldn't need to ask the question.)

Rolfe.

Exactly my point Rolfe. It is a double standard indeed. Here, the place where "science" and "evidence" are claimed to be utilized to determine the truth of claims and yet it seems when those claims are against anything non-allopathic then evidence isn't needed.

The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? actually, your comment is pretty much the same as me saying "if you ever saw someone take a remedy and watch it work you wouldn't need to ask if homeopathy works." Of course you don't allow such comments as "evidence" so let's not allow it to "prove " that colon cleansing is highly dangerous.

 

[fishbait]

Response to Quackwatch page on colon cleansing:

"AND they've realized we have a second brain, which is located in the wall of the intestine."

Evidence for the "◊◊◊◊ for brains" theory.

Years ago I had several colonic cleansing treatments administered by an attractive young woman. I always wondered about dinner conversations with her husband: "So, Honey, what did you do at work today?"

 

[Zep]

"Oh, I rinsed out some gullible homeopaths. You know - same old same old."

 

[Jeff Corey]

..
The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? .

Actually never, Because there is no such word as "perferated", you illiterate dingbat.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12066245&dopt=Abstract

The study looks at 14 patients with perforations after cleansings. They exist. There's no doubt many people have experienced perforations after cleansing. That part of the body is not made for "cleansings".

It's really not ethical to take a bunch of people and do cleansings to see how many get perforations. And there's really no one place to collect national or international data on the topic either. Hence, you will never find any statistics on exactly how many perforations occur per x number of cleansings.

Although it is silly to ingest clay, it is safer to drink the dirt concoctions that will take on the shape of your colon before you pass it out. If you figure you need some cleansing, drink the mud, just don't get stuff up your butt.

 

[Kopji]

Ten patients were treated by surgery; five recovered and the other five died. The other four patients were treated conservatively and all four died.
-ibid

Because we care.

 

[Mojo]

Exactly my point Rolfe. It is a double standard indeed. Here, the place where "science" and "evidence" are claimed to be utilized to determine the truth of claims and yet it seems when those claims are against anything non-allopathic then evidence isn't needed.

The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? actually, your comment is pretty much the same as me saying "if you ever saw someone take a remedy and watch it work you wouldn't need to ask if homeopathy works." Of course you don't allow such comments as "evidence" so let's not allow it to "prove " that colon cleansing is highly dangerous.

Eos has posted the evidence.

Remember that the standard of evidence for negative outcomes is necessarily going to be different from that for desired outcomes. For a treatment to be worth using, it needs to work consistently, and controlled testing is an appropriate way of testing this. Negative outcomes are hopefully going to be much rarer, at least for viable treatments where the alternative isn't something along the lines of death, and evidence for them is therefore necessarily going to be more anecdotal.

 

[Beady]

I already printed off a page from quackwatch.com about it, but it's not very convincing.

????????

From the summary of articles on Qwackwatch:

Gastrointestinal Quackery: Colonics, Laxatives, and Morek, Nov 18 2004

* colon cleansing (such as before a radiologic endocopic examination).
* No system has been approved for "routine" colon cleansing
* colon cleansing, such as before radiologic or sigmoidoscopic

Colonic Promoters Facing Legal Actions, Dec 3 2003

* only for use in medically indicated colon cleansing, such as

Unnaturalistic Methods: P, Jun 4 1997

* approach to nutrition." It includes "colon cleansing" and

Unnaturalistic Methods: J-K, Jun 4 1997

* Kahuna healing encompasses "colon cleansing," "energy field

Just this little bit makes it look dubious.

 

[clarsct]

From a Dr. of my acquantaince, I have also learned that you can seriously disrupt your electrolyte balance with some of these infusions. The large intestine mainly exists to ABSORB water and any lingering nutrients from the stool. Flushing it with water is like overloading a sponge, in away. It doesn't do what it is supposed to.

Just a few pennies.

 

[Rolfe]

Exactly The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon?

OK, you've had your evidence. Comments?

You know what? I've actually seen patients with perforated large intestines. Yes, iatrogenically (that means the doctor caused it, as I suppose you know). Thankfully, they were cattle.

You probably know that rectal examination plays a bigger part in large animal medicine than in human medicine. This is because the size of the animal allows quite a lot of useful information to be gathered that way, including pregnancy testing and information about the health and status of the reproductive tract. Unfortunately, cack-handed veterinary students have to be trained in this technique, and sometimes things go wrong. This happened to an unfortunate heifer while I was at college. The staff tried their best, but sadly she had to be shot.

Exhortations to be careful and lurid descriptions of the possible consequences pepper all lectures on rectal examination techniques. And once you've seen an example, you understand why.

When I read what is done in colon cleansing therapy, I'm simply appalled. Sure, most people get away with it most of the time. But I didn't need Eos's reference to know that tragedies would have happened. It's inevitable. So, having some homoeopaths who need a smack in the mouth about now, I didn't bother to look up the evidence I knew would be there - I just waited for someone else to find it. Thanks, Eos.

Look, playing in traffic is obviously stupid. If one of your children demanded peer-reviewed documentary evidence for the number of children who were injured while doing that, would you meekly go and look it up for them, or would you tell them not to be so cheeky?

Rolfe.

[tastless comment warning]If Princess Diana, had to die of something, guess what I wish had got her?[/warning]

 

[Diamond]

I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks.

(And no, I've never had, or wanted to have colonic irrigation)

 

[Barbrae]

Eos has posted the evidence.

Remember that the standard of evidence for negative outcomes is necessarily going to be different from that for desired outcomes. For a treatment to be worth using, it needs to work consistently, and controlled testing is an appropriate way of testing this. Negative outcomes are hopefully going to be much rarer, at least for viable treatments where the alternative isn't something along the lines of death, and evidence for them is therefore necessarily going to be more anecdotal.

Hi Mojo,

Yes, of course, but when someone make sthis statement...

"The truth is that it is extremely dangerous to one's health. What makes this procedure dangerous is the damage it does to the colon's system. It could damage the "cilia" that lines the colon. Cilia pushes the material along helping the "good" stuff get digested. This could cause a loss of vitamins from being absorbed causing the patient to become malnourished. There is also the risk of infections. The "material" is pushed back upward through the system. There may be a risk of "leakage" into other internal organs. This could cause the patient to go "septic". Which puts someone in the hospital for infections throughout the abodomen."

but fails to back it up with any evidence (in fact, this poster doesn't even mention perforations, I'd still like to see evidence to back up what they claim) that evidence should be asked for.

 

[Rolfe]

News flash. Just because someone makes a mistake in the mechanism they're postulating doesn't mean the effect they're describing is nonexistent. Note that Dr. Imago corrected goodgirlonhere's mistake within an hour, and on the very next post. And that everything else posted has been essentially factually correct.

You weren't saying, hey, come on, the gut doesn't have cilia, you guys don't know what you're talking about. You were simply jumping to the defence of any sort of dangerous woo, in your usual manner, because anything that isn't regular medicine is good in your eyes. (Even though enemas are regular medicine, in the right context.)

If we're talking about playing in traffic, do we actually have to say in words of one syllable that one of the dangers is that a child might be killed by a car? Do you really think that because one poster makes a mistake about the exact rules of one of the street games, then that means that it's OK to play in traffic?

Rolfe.

 

[goodgirlonhere]

My mistake

Yes it was my mispelling on the word "cilia" or it's reference. That was my mistake. Got mixed up with another fingerlike appendage that was used to move things along. Anyway, I don't always get "evidence" or quote directly from a law or medical book. It doesn't matter because if you don't believe what I have stated your going to look it up anyways. Seeing is believing. Plus I try to "break it down" to layman's terms. Too many interpretations can happen from official sources as we can easily note.
My statement still stands about Colon cleansing. It has been known to cause damage to the large intensines by "rupture" or "perforation" whichever word you prefer. It also leads to serious malnutrition. The nutrients are not being properly absorbed into the system and vitamin/nutrient loss does occur. This can cause the body to go into "starvation" mode. The organs are going to react to this in desperation to be fed. When this happens many symptoms can occur. The symptoms are similar in what you would see in an Anoroxic, Bulimic, or Starved person. That may include an "extended stomach", loss of teeth or hair, and immunes system defencies. Ironically, these symptoms will still occur if you are eating normally with doing the colon cleansing. Essentially, overuse of colon cleansing can make a person "starve to death" in the worst scenerio.
I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement with "silver" in it can cause your skin to permanently turn silver if used for long periods of time. Other elements may have similar effects on the body. Taking grapefruit juice and blood pressure medications will cause serious problems. So be careful with the natural ingredients or natural uses of ingredients. They may be dangerous in actual use or combination. Colon cleansing is one of those "natural" uses that is dangerous and not useful in the long run.

 

[Rolfe]

I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement....

Oh do tell! What do you think is in homoeopathic remedies? Have you done any research on the subject?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be nasty, just trying to find out if you're really a devotee of that insane delusion, or if you're simply labouring under the common misapprehension that homoeopathy is just a fancy word for herbalism.

You do realise that if a homoeopathic remedy says it's "silver", there's no possibility that there could be enough silver in it to turn your little toe silver, and the probability is (depending on the "potency" purchased) that there isn't a single molecule of silver in it at all? That homoeopathic remedies tend not to have any "ingredients" in them at all?

Rolfe.

 

[Mojo]

My statement still stands about Colon cleansing. It has been known to cause damage to the large intensines by "rupture" or "perforation" whichever word you prefer. It also leads to serious malnutrition. The nutrients are not being properly absorbed into the system and vitamin/nutrient loss does occur. This can cause the body to go into "starvation" mode. The organs are going to react to this in desperation to be fed. When this happens many symptoms can occur. The symptoms are similar in what you would see in an Anoroxic, Bulimic, or Starved person. That may include an "extended stomach", loss of teeth or hair, and immunes system defencies. Ironically, these symptoms will still occur if you are eating normally with doing the colon cleansing. Essentially, overuse of colon cleansing can make a person "starve to death" in the worst scenerio.

Er, nope. The primary function of the colon is to reabsorb water. Very little, if any, nutritional absorption happens there.

I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement with "silver" in it can cause your skin to permanently turn silver if used for long periods of time.

Not if the "supplement" is homeopathic it won't!

ETA: I see Rolfe's beaten me to it again!

 

[clarsct]

From a Dr. of my acquantaince, I have also learned that you can seriously disrupt your electrolyte balance with some of these infusions. The large intestine mainly exists to ABSORB water and any lingering nutrients from the stool. Flushing it with water is like overloading a sponge, in away. It doesn't do what it is supposed to.

Just a few pennies.

Just to reinforce Mojo's point, I thought I'd repeat myself...

(apparently, there is a minute amount of nutrient reabsorbtion, but it's mainly a 'scavenger' sort of deal. Not the primary focus, but does happen somewhat)

 

[goodgirlonhere]

I am not against someone believing in homeopathic remedy

I am NOT against someone believing in homeopathic remedies. I do not use them myself except for the occassional vitamin C or Zinc cold prevention. Never found that to work very well but I like the cough drops...
I never claimed to be into homeopathic user but I am not against trying out something on occassion. I believe if the Indians and other ancestors survived without medical companies, I can too. They must have known a few natural cures here and there.
Yes, there is a condition where taking too much silver can cause permanent skin discoloration. It shows up the worst in the face area but involves the whole body. A person who suffers from this is often referred to as "Walking dead". They look like a corpse. A lady with this condition was recently on a show on Health channel. It is a proven condition with no cure. I was shocked to have seen it myself or I wouldn't have believed it. I am sorry I can't spell the condition name out. Afraid I would get "attacked" because I can't spell some rare condition that only a few people suffer from. But it does exist and I am sure a poster here will find it.

 

[clarsct]

Oh dear. It seems you've confused 'herbalism' with 'homeopathy'.
Rolfe, Mojo? I'm sure there's a website out there that explains the difference.

 

[Rolfe]

I am NOT against someone believing in homeopathic remedies. I do not use them myself except for the occassional vitamin C or Zinc cold prevention. Never found that to work very well but I like the cough drops...
I never claimed to be into homeopathic user but I am not against trying out something on occassion. I believe if the Indians and other ancestors survived without medical companies, I can too. They must have known a few natural cures here and there.
Yes, there is a condition where taking too much silver can cause permanent skin discoloration. It shows up the worst in the face area but involves the whole body. A person who suffers from this is often referred to as "Walking dead". They look like a corpse. A lady with this condition was recently on a show on Health channel. It is a proven condition with no cure. I was shocked to have seen it myself or I wouldn't have believed it. I am sorry I can't spell the condition name out. Afraid I would get "attacked" because I can't spell some rare condition that only a few people suffer from. But it does exist and I am sure a poster here will find it.

You were the one who was advocating doing some "research". I think you ought to take your own advice.

I'm not against anyone believing in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but this forum is about science and medicine, religion is across the hall....

Yes, we know about the dangers of silver supplements, argentia, is that the name of the condition? Of course it exists, and most of us here have read a number of articles about it. But it's got nothing to do with homoeopathy.

Another news flash. Lots of people have lived into their 80s and even 90s without any medical intervention whatsoever, in all societies, in all ages. The fact that some members of any given society managed that is no evidence whatsoever that whatever they were using as "medicine" was any use at all.

However, whatever the Indians or anybody else's ancestors happened to use, it was not homoeopathy, which was invented out of thin air in about 1800 by a German physician called Samuel Hahnemann.

Silver supplements, grapefruit juice or whatever you want, are not homoeopathy. Homoeopathy is sugar pills. With nothing else in them.

So maybe you want to go and do a bit of that research before you start supporting something you clearly have no idea about whatsoever. You could start on www.homeowatch.org

Rolfe.