Colin Powell is an idiot!

[Kodiak]

Go look in the periodic table. Or maybe you should just educate yourself on Iraq and the Middle East. It's like someone hearing Alan Greenspan talk about how if the government continues to have gigantic deficits, it will suck up funds for business investment and push up interest rates and slow down the economy and someone asking, "evidence please." Somethings logically follow if you are educated well enough with the subject and its history. I don't have the time to educate you on this topic from square one and I doubt your ability to learn.

How about asking for evidence of an al Qaida-Iraq link? How about asking yourself why--if the Bush administration's cause is just--it is so necessary for them to lie continuously? They are so desparate to sell that lie that they are making the incredible claim that the latest bin Laden tape proves an Hussein-al Qaida link. That's how stupid they are or think everyone else is. Alas, some people are that stupid. I hope that you are not one of them.

Excellent, though unresponsive, reply...

 

[Kodiak]

Why don't you look up the definition of ad hominem and acquaint yourself with it before trying to use it? If someone says, "the moon is made of green cheese," and I say, "you don't know what you're talking about." that is not an ad hominem.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Evidence please.

Description of Ad Hominem: Abusive Fallacy


Ad Hominem's you, Wayne, presented in just this thread...


1. "Colin Powell is an idiot!"

2. "Colin Powell and the bozoes in the Bush administration continue to..."

3. "Colin Gump is exploiting that to..."

4. " That's what happens when you allow a chimp to be president."

5. "The idiots in charge are driving this country into the ground..."

6. "I'm getting sick of your insults, so f*ck off, Ric."

7. "Okay, Colin Powell, as much of a dufous that he is, may not be an idiot. What he is is a lying scum bag with no integrity."

8. "...it breaks my heart to see a bunch of inept amateurs and greedy bastards ruining what could have been..."

9. "And Colin Powell is still a scum bag with no integrity."

(edited to add a tenth one I didn't catch right away...)

10. "Or maybe you should just educate yourself on Iraq and the Middle East."

Now that we got that cleared up, care to offer any evidence to back up your claims? (The ones that aren't Ad Hominems, that is...)

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Well let me help you change your mind. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Iraqi intelligence officers confiscated all the personnel information from the Kuwaiti passport agencies and its version of the state department.

What that did was give Iraq and terrorist organizations the identities and personal information on tens of thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands of western friendly arab peoples whom they could make passports for and give to terrorists.

Iraq is knee-deep in terrorist sponsorship. The information above is just the tip of the iceberg.

JK

Sorry, Jedi, but this is more propaganda. The claim that Iraqi intellegence supplied al Qaida with phoney passports in 1993 is highly speculative. If there were any substance to it, the Bush administration would have been loudly publicising it for the last two years.

I can drive a few miles to Sepulveda Boulevard and get phoney documents. I don't need to Iraqis to supply them. We already know that some of the terrorists who hijacked planes on 9/11 had phoney driver licences supplied to them by individuals working for the Departments of Motor Vehicles in a couple of the United States. Does that prove that the US government or its intelligence agencies sponsor terrorism? No, it doesn't. However, the Reagan administration's sponsorship of death squads in Central America and the Bush Administration's assistance to the Taliban could make that case.

 

[rikzilla]

Yes, just like the no-win situation in Afghanistan in the 1980's for the USSR!

As for your second paragraph with its ad hominem, just like the wishful thinking in your last paragraph, you don't know what the $%$ you're talking about. The idiots in charge are driving this country into the ground, but you can continue to play violin, Nero.

I'm getting sick of your insults, so f*ck off, Ric.

Thomas Paine speaks to you Wayne:

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.

The American Crisis 1780-83

I doubt Wayne would even qualify as a "sunshine patriot". You should be a little less touchy Wayne,...when you start a thread with ad-homs, you should be ready to get some back.

-zilla

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Description of Ad Hominem: Abusive Fallacy

Ad Hominem's you, Wayne, presented in just this thread...

Now that we got that cleared up, care to offer any evidence to back up your claims? (The ones that aren't Ad Hominems, that is...)

From your own link:

A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.

To explain what should be obvious to you, but isn't, an ad hominem isn't name calling; it's substituting name calling for argument. I have characterized Powell and others in his camp based on the fallacies and dishonesty of their arguments. I have provided arguments against their positions and that explain the basis of my characterizations of them. I don't say Powell shouldn't be believed because he is a scum bag; I say Powell is a scum bag because....

So get a clue before you try using big words.

Edited to add: I just looked through this thread and there is not one place where YOU make ANY argument, you lazy hypocrite!

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Thomas Paine speaks to you Wayne:

It does not refer to me at all. I'm defending the principles that Paine fought for. You are mindlessly supporting misguided and immoral government policy. You'd have made a good and loyal and "patriotic" Nazi. I would have opposed Hitler. There's a difference between being patriotic and idiotic.

As for not being fit to shine someone's shoes, you are not fit to lick the dirt off my shoes. So go get drunk again and f*ck yourself.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

Wayne Grabert

You'd have made a good and loyal and "patriotic" Nazi.

Dude, I agree with many of your positions, but this was going too far. It's simply not a good idea to trivialize nazism by comparing people like Rik to nazis. You may disagree with him, but let's face it -- no matter how great a disagreement, he doesn't merit that sort of attack. There are a few loons and fools here, but I can't think of any that would merit such vitriol -- not even JK, although he is skirting close.

P.S. yeah, ignoramuses mistaking an insult of argumentum ad hominem is one of my pet peeves. they don't understand that Ad Hominem is only when you say something like "You suck ass, and therefore you are wrong" -- neither "You suck ass" nor "You suck ass, and you are wrong because XYZ" constitute argumenta ad homines.

 

[rikzilla]

It does not refer to me at all. I'm defending the principles that Paine fought for. You are mindlessly supporting misguided and immoral government policy. You'd have made a good and loyal and "patriotic" Nazi. I would have opposed Hitler. There's a difference between being patriotic and idiotic.

As for not being fit to shine someone's shoes, you are not fit to lick the dirt off my shoes. So go get drunk again and f*ck yourself.

My...we sure are testy today now aren't we??? Calm down man,...I'm sure you've got a few more good months left before JK's truth commission gets cranked up.

You really shouldn't take all this so seriously Wayne....what do you wanna do? Live forever??? HAHAHAHAH

-Your friend,
Rick

 

[Jedi Knight]

Sorry, Jedi, but this is more propaganda. The claim that Iraqi intellegence supplied al Qaida with phoney passports in 1993 is highly speculative. If there were any substance to it, the Bush administration would have been loudly publicising it for the last two years.

I can drive a few miles to Sepulveda Boulevard and get phoney documents. I don't need to Iraqis to supply them. We already know that some of the terrorists who hijacked planes on 9/11 had phoney driver licences supplied to them by individuals working for the Departments of Motor Vehicles in a couple of the United States. Does that prove that the US government or its intelligence agencies sponsor terrorism? No, it doesn't. However, the Reagan administration's sponsorship of death squads in Central America and the Bush Administration's assistance to the Taliban could make that case.

No, it is not propaganda. The fact that you can go down to see some thug somewhere and get fake documents inside America has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

The United States and Europe have strict guidelines about who comes into our countries. Most of those restrictions are filtered through databases that severely restrict people from certain nation-states from traveling to the United States.

Could a Saudi travel to the United States easier, than lets say an Iranian? Or a Yemeni? Or an Iraqi?

You bet.

So imagine all the Saudis that would hop on planes and go to Kuwait, a cool place to vacation. Now, if you get access to those passport documents that the Kuwaitis had voluminous amounts of material on (including Americans and Europeans), now you can take an Iranian terrorist cell, an Iraqi terrorist cell and a Yemini terrorist cell and give them Saudi or American or European idenities, put them on a plane and they waltz into America.

That is much different than say you as an American trying to get fake papers to go to Iran. Why would you do that?

JK

 

[rikzilla]

Wayne Grabert

Dude, I agree with many of your positions, but this was going too far. It's simply not a good idea to trivialize nazism by comparing people like Rik to nazis. You may disagree with him, but let's face it -- no matter how great a disagreement, he doesn't merit that sort of attack. There are a few loons and fools here, but I can't think of any that would merit such vitriol -- not even JK, although he is skirting close.

P.S. yeah, ignoramuses mistaking an insult of argumentum ad hominem is one of my pet peeves. they don't understand that Ad Hominem is only when you say something like "You suck ass, and therefore you are wrong" -- neither "You suck ass" nor "You suck ass, and you are wrong because XYZ" constitute argumenta ad homines.

Thanks Vic,

I got drunk and posted the other night....so Wayne's real, real pissed off at me. I do try, and have tried to look at this crisis with all due seriousness. But hey, life's too short....and doesn't look like the world's getting any safer. IMHO the time for talk and debate is just about over. Time to take a decision and get on with it. That's all. Wayne took his...and I mine.

The gulf widens.

-zilla

 

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Calm down man,...I'm sure you've got a few more good months left before JK's truth commission gets cranked up.

LOL

JK

 

[Wayne Grabert]

My...we sure are testy today now aren't we??? Calm down man,...I'm sure you've got a few more good months left before JK's truth commission gets cranked up.

You really shouldn't take all this so seriously Wayne....what do you wanna do? Live forever??? HAHAHAHAH

-Your friend,
Rick

Rik, I'd be quite happy to start on fresh footing with you. You give up the insults and I'll do the same.

I have things to do and so I will be away from this board for the next several hours, and perhaps till tomorrow night. I'll leave my side of the argument in the meantime to be argued by the capable Victor, should he care to engage you. I'm also getting weary of debating this subject, especially since the war will start within weeks. Powell and Bush have basically said so. However, I wanted to give you and others some idea of what to expect and why, as I've argued my points over the last several months, and also to point out the duplicity and odiousness of those who are starting that war.

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Wayne Grabert

Dude, I agree with many of your positions, but this was going too far.

I used an extreme example because it most easily makes my point about the difference between dissent and disloyalty, and between uncritical obedience and adherence to moral principles.

 

[Wayne Grabert]

That is much different than say you as an American trying to get fake papers to go to Iran. Why would you do that?

JK

For the caviar!

P.S. I know why you would do it and who would give you the fake papers. Hint: You'd pick them up in Langley, VA.

 

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Rik sneaks in a Dan Daily quote and no one notices!!!

 

[crackmonkey]

Getting off-point for a sec... Wayne, why encourage JK's delusions?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Getting off-point for a sec... Wayne, why encourage JK's delusions?

Lighten up Crack-Monkey boy. I don't work in Langley--never been there. I don't know anyone from Virginia, actually.

JK

 

[crackmonkey]

Okay, my bad. Sorry.

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Getting off-point for a sec... Wayne, why encourage JK's delusions?

Sorry, but I never thought of his musings as delusions. I've said before and I'll say it again: this board would not be nearly as much fun or as interesting without JK. I care about the guy and I sincerely want him to be happy. I know he has some out-of-the-mainstream ideas, but I don't consider him psychotic.

 

[Wayne Grabert]

I just had to return long enough to post a thread in the Literature & Arts section since JK's mention of Iran reminded me of a movie I saw Friday night. Those of you in the LA area may want to check it out.