Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Christian Klippel]

Christian Klippel @ 06:02 PM

Rossi controls everything. It is his facility. It would be easy for him to have(variable) 1000 volts at the "standard wall socket". A new lead can easily take 1000 volts and 15 amps.

Try thinking like JR don't just accept the word of a serial scammer.

I know that he is a scammer. And i think like an electrician, which is a job that i spent 3 1/2 years of learning for. It's extremely unlikely that he used 1kV for several reasons.

Standard flexible wire is usually rated 750V nominally. Any accidental sharp bending or kinking of the cable is likely to cause "squeezing" of the inner wires insulation, since it is made of a rather soft material. This has a high risk of insulation failure. HV cabale cabling looks distinctly different, and nowhere like the regular cables that can be seen in the videos (at least the ones i have seen).

Next are the heater elements. You will have little luck using normal heaters, designed for 230V, with 1kV. At least if you plan to operate them for more than a few seconds.

Then, while Rossi is a scammer, i doubt that he is stupid. Using 1kV unsupervised in an environment where 3rd parties walk around bears the risk of lethal electrical shock. A simple insulation failure or arcing, to/in a metal part that is touched by someone else, can cause that persons death. Surely nothing the he wants to risk.

15kW transformers are pretty huge, and pretty expensive. I doubt that he is willing to spent that money. After all, what i have seen so far would not require anything more that a submersible water heater thingy (as far as the heating element is concerned). Which, btw, would also nicely fit into those small devices he shows. Also, a transformer would introduce additional losses.

Finally, there is also an increased risk with 1kV due to stuff like creepage distances, etc. Regular sockets and plug are simply not built for that. Any slight mistake or oversight can cause quite some fireworks. Heck, even 380V stuff over here has distinctive additional safety meassures, like increased creepage distances, thicker and more insulation, etc.

A scammer wants to grab money from people while spending as little as possible. He does not want to spend lots of money on things that can be achieved much cheaper.

There are a lot of problems with that 1kV theory of yours.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[tsig]

I know that he is a scammer. And i think like an electrician, which is a job that i spent 3 1/2 years of learning for. It's extremely unlikely that he used 1kV for several reasons.

Standard flexible wire is usually rated 750V nominally. Any accidental sharp bending or kinking of the cable is likely to cause "squeezing" of the inner wires insulation, since it is made of a rather soft material. This has a high risk of insulation failure. HV cabale cabling looks distinctly different, and nowhere like the regular cables that can be seen in the videos (at least the ones i have seen).

Next are the heater elements. You will have little luck using normal heaters, designed for 230V, with 1kV. At least if you plan to operate them for more than a few seconds.

Then, while Rossi is a scammer, i doubt that he is stupid. Using 1kV unsupervised in an environment where 3rd parties walk around bears the risk of lethal electrical shock. A simple insulation failure or arcing, to/in a metal part that is touched by someone else, can cause that persons death. Surely nothing the he wants to risk.

15kW transformers are pretty huge, and pretty expensive. I doubt that he is willing to spent that money. After all, what i have seen so far would not require anything more that a submersible water heater thingy (as far as the heating element is concerned). Which, btw, would also nicely fit into those small devices he shows. Also, a transformer would introduce additional losses.

Finally, there is also an increased risk with 1kV due to stuff like creepage distances, etc. Regular sockets and plug are simply not built for that. Any slight mistake or oversight can cause quite some fireworks. Heck, even 380V stuff over here has distinctive additional safety meassures, like increased creepage distances, thicker and more insulation, etc.

A scammer wants to grab money from people while spending as little as possible. He does not want to spend lots of money on things that can be achieved much cheaper.

There are a lot of problems with that 1kV theory of yours.

Greetings,

Chris

It occurred to me that ammeters don't have directional indicators on them so if I label the input as output an observer wouldn't know the difference.

 

[Christian Klippel]

It occurred to me that ammeters don't have directional indicators on them so if I label the input as output an observer wouldn't know the difference.

Not sure what you want to say with that. DC ammeters show the "direction" with the polarity sign, for AC there is no "direction" as such. And in the DC case simply swapping the leads with also swap the sign.

To see wether something is sinking or sourcing AC, something like a electromechancal meter ("Ferrariszähler" in German) will do. But then again, swapping in/out will also reverse the rotational direction of the disc in that meter.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[nathan]

It is trivial to deliver 15Kw through an ordinary extension lead from a "wall socket".
Rossi controls everything at his demos. Nobody tested the "wall socket" for voltage throughout the "public" trial.

Furthermore the calorimetry was utterly hopeless. All the steam should have been condensed. It is obvious that 15Kw of steam was not coming from his pathetic little hose.

I thought the general consensus here was that calorimetry was so bad, there's no evidence 15kW output was being achieved (and there are rather strong arguments based on the lack of sweltering heat in the lab and BB radiation limitations indicating it couldn't be anywhere near that).

 

[cjameshuff]

Not sure what you want to say with that. DC ammeters show the "direction" with the polarity sign, for AC there is no "direction" as such. And in the DC case simply swapping the leads with also swap the sign.

To clarify that last point...the current flowing to a heater is the same as the current flowing from it. You don't have current flowing into the heater, getting turned into heat, and a bit of leftover current coming back. With AC, however, you can have equal average or peak current flowing through two leads and additional current flowing between them and a third lead. IIRC, there were indications this was part of Rossi's scam...some suspicious wiring, and Rossi refusing to allow current on the ground wire to be measured. Using 3 phase power and representing it as 2-phase and a ground allows you to transmit 173% of the claimed power.

You can also play games with RMS (Root Mean Square) and peak value measurements to disguise or misrepresent what you're actually measuring...present an RMS measurement as a peak value measurement and apply the RMS correction again in your heating calculations, and suddenly you're getting 141% of expected output power.

Or wire multiple heaters in series and bump up the overall voltage so the voltage across each is what it's rated for, and then do your power calculations using current measurements as though they were wired in parallel, with current divided among the heaters. In isolation, each looks like a reasonable thing to do, and with some misdirection you can hide that you're using double the electrical power you say you are.

Combine all of these, and you can be using nearly 5 times as much electrical power as you say you are. None of it will hold up to close inspection, of course, but Rossi's not exactly being real cooperative there, is he? And I'm not even doing anything really sneaky like distorting waveforms with nonlinear loads to trip up cheap RMS meters...

I thought the general consensus here was that calorimetry was so bad, there's no evidence 15kW output was being achieved (and there are rather strong arguments based on the lack of sweltering heat in the lab and BB radiation limitations indicating it couldn't be anywhere near that).

Not only did he fail to convincingly demonstrate the claimed power output, he failed to demonstrate that what he had was continuous and sustained. It wouldn't be hard to heat up part of the machine without water flow and then run water through it for a brief display of steam out of the hose, which spent most of the time stuck in a bucket and out of view.

 

[acementhead]

Dancing David @ 10:12 PM

Hi David, thank you for your welcome.

Yes I have read a considerable amount of this board, although not all by any means. I have also read lots of other stuff about, and by, Rossi, including on the US Navy thermo-couple scam. A very brief account of that is here.

shutdownrossi.com/rossi-the-military/rossis-thermoelectric-scam/

Sorry it's not a URL, system won't let me post as URL.

I can't be bothered digging out more just now as pushed for time the next couple of weeks. People in general, and in the government in particular, don't like letting on that they've been scammed so it is hard to find much on the Rossi TCS.

David could you be more specific on this sentence which you claim is "out of line and inappropriate"?

"Try thinking like JR don't just accept the word of a serial scammer."

Is the problem that I said "Jehova" or that I accused Rossi of fraud? If the former then I appologise for my ignorance of local etiquette; if the latter then tough. When I see fraud I call it what it is.

 

[Dancing David]

Dancing David @ 10:12 PM

Hi David, thank you for your welcome.

Yes I have read a considerable amount of this board, although not all by any means. I have also read lots of other stuff about, and by, Rossi, including on the US Navy thermo-couple scam. A very brief account of that is here.

shutdownrossi.com/rossi-the-military/rossis-thermoelectric-scam/

Sorry it's not a URL, system won't let me post as URL.

I can't be bothered digging out more just now as pushed for time the next couple of weeks. People in general, and in the government in particular, don't like letting on that they've been scammed so it is hard to find much on the Rossi TCS.

David could you be more specific on this sentence which you claim is "out of line and inappropriate"?

"Try thinking like JR don't just accept the word of a serial scammer."

Is the problem that I said "Jehova" or that I accused Rossi of fraud? If the former then I appologise for my ignorance of local etiquette; if the latter then tough. When I see fraud I call it what it is.

Simple question, in the post you responded to when did that person say they accepted the word of a serial scammer?



Although tomorrow I will probably reread everything and find out I am confused.

 

[acementhead]

Christian Klippel @ 01:26 AM

Thanks for your long and detailed response. I consider that one would be walking a bit of a fine line delivering 15KVA through an electrical lead but it is eminently doable in my opinion. A new heavy duty lead carefully handled will easily cope with 1000 volts.

Nobody was allowed to touch anything.

It is even possible that he put three phases down the three conductors and earthed the contraption locally.

Also I don't consider that 15 Kw was being consumed. Place would have been much warmer than it was.

Why on earth would he need to use "normal heater elements", the whole contraption had been built by him and his workers. Why not fabricate the heating elements too?

 

[acementhead]

Dancing David @ 07:01 AM

David you ask

"Simple question, in the post you responded to when did that person say they accepted the word of a serial scammer?"

He said

"...but no, not through a normal wall socket..."

That meant that he accepted Rossi's word that it was a normal wall socket. Rossi produced no evidence that it was a "normal wall socket" ergo the poster had accepted scammer Rossi's word.

 

[pteridine]

Why on earth would he need to use "normal heater elements", the whole contraption had been built by him and his workers. Why not fabricate the heating elements too?

Have you ever constructed anything? Would you consider using existing pieces if they suited your purpose or would you reinvent all the components?

 

[phunk]

Have you ever constructed anything? Would you consider using existing pieces if they suited your purpose or would you reinvent all the components?

If I was perpetrating a scam, I may consider constructing components that looked like something they weren't.

 

[dlorde]

He said

"...but no, not through a normal wall socket..."

That meant that he accepted Rossi's word that it was a normal wall socket. Rossi produced no evidence that it was a "normal wall socket" ergo the poster had accepted scammer Rossi's word.

It doesn't mean he accepted Rossi's word, just that it wouldn't be sensible with a normal wall socket.

The point is that Rossi doesn't need 1kV, custom wall sockets, or custom heaters - what he's demonstrated could be mocked up with conventional heating elements and standard wall sockets. Only the wiring need be swapped around to sneak the heating supply current in.

Don't forget, he won't let anyone look inside the box or measure what comes out of the wall socket. Why would he bother making his own stuff if he can buy it off the shelf and keep it hidden?

 

[dlorde]

If I was perpetrating a scam, I may consider constructing components that looked like something they weren't.

But that would only be worth doing if they were to be seen.

 

[tsig]

Not sure what you want to say with that. DC ammeters show the "direction" with the polarity sign, for AC there is no "direction" as such. And in the DC case simply swapping the leads with also swap the sign.

To see wether something is sinking or sourcing AC, something like a electromechancal meter ("Ferrariszähler" in German) will do. But then again, swapping in/out will also reverse the rotational direction of the disc in that meter.

Greetings,

Chris

I was just musing about how easy it would be to jigger the readings unless you had your own instrumentation and installed it your self.

It's often hard for honest people to think like a con man and how they use our expectations to fool us.

 

[Dancing David]

Dancing David @ 07:01 AM

David you ask

"Simple question, in the post you responded to when did that person say they accepted the word of a serial scammer?"

He said

"...but no, not through a normal wall socket..."

That meant that he accepted Rossi's word that it was a normal wall socket. Rossi produced no evidence that it was a "normal wall socket" ergo the poster had accepted scammer Rossi's word.

This just show you did not read the post in context, which was about a 'normal wall socket' in general and not specifically about a socket that Rossi used.

If you are not a native speaker of english this would be understandable. But CK's post was a general response to a question and did not address the specifics of Rossi's different runs.

This is your sentence that CK responded to
"It is trivial to deliver 15Kw through an ordinary extension lead from a "wall socket"..?

You err in thinking that CK's comment addressed the second sentence of your post, CK only quoted that one line.

 

[Christian Klippel]

I was just musing about how easy it would be to jigger the readings unless you had your own instrumentation and installed it your self.

It's often hard for honest people to think like a con man and how they use our expectations to fool us.

Ah, right. Yes, that is true. It's a common theme with those energy scams that they use inadequate instrumentation and/or use it the wrong way.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Christian Klippel]

Christian Klippel @ 01:26 AM

Thanks for your long and detailed response. I consider that one would be walking a bit of a fine line delivering 15KVA through an electrical lead but it is eminently doable in my opinion. A new heavy duty lead carefully handled will easily cope with 1000 volts.

Nobody was allowed to touch anything.

Well, if you are feeling lucky you are welcome to try it yourself to push that amount of energy at that voltage through that kind of cable.

A solid core (!) cable with a 1.5mm conductor cross section is rated for 16A nominal. However, this only applies if said cable is in open air. Put it in a wall and you have to derate it already.

a 1.5mm flexible cable would be much thicker. From what i have seen in the videos so far (again, the ones that i have seen, there might be others), especially that one demo video where he placed a clamp ammeter onto one wire, seems more like the "normal" 0.75mm cross section wiring. This would mean 8A at most. In case of 0.5mm, it would mean about 5A max.

Plus, such simple cables are even rated less than 750V, usually in the 300V to 500V range. You can check that yourself. Every cable that is worth that name has the basic specs printed on the outer insulation. Just check the cables you have your computer/printer/etc. plugged in with. Chances are very high that those are even only 0.5mm cross section. A flexible three conductor cable with 0.75 is already quite thick. Anyways, i have a few here with 0.75mm and it says 300/500V as the voltage rating.

About people not allowed to touch anything: That doesn't really matter here. The point is that 3rd parties are roaming around, and he is alone, or at best with an additional friend. The chances of someone touching something, or stepping on the cable, etc., are just too high. If one owants to scam people, it's usually a good idea to not kill them by accident...

It is even possible that he put three phases down the three conductors and earthed the contraption locally.

With 3 phases one would not need a neutral or earth. And the earthing would be needed only for protective meassures. But if he wouldn't care about that, then why having an earthing point at all? After all, you are proposing the idea that he used 1kV without caring about safety, so why then having an earthing point in this case?

Also I don't consider that 15 Kw was being consumed. Place would have been much warmer than it was.

Why on earth would he need to use "normal heater elements", the whole contraption had been built by him and his workers. Why not fabricate the heating elements too?

Why not? They are readily available, cheap, safe to use. Just buy one of these cheap, plastic electric kettles ("Wasserkocher" in German) at a 1 Euro shop and rip out the heater. Readily made to be submerged in water. Those things have usually around 2kW and can boil water in a minute (i am assuming 230V here, which is pretty much standard in EU).

Regarding the wall socket: Please keep in mind that it was you who said "... ordinary extension lead ..." which kind of implies that it would be plugged in a standard wall socket. After all, those extension leads are built for exactly that purpose.

Really, there is no need for high power/high current/high voltage to be used. That warm water with the occasional puff of steam is easily achieved with conventional, readily available parts. So no need to build special stuff like 1kV capable heater elements either.

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: And to make my point about the cable a bit more clear. For example, you can buy those electric heaters here, like these. That one has 2kW, and there are 2.5kW types available as well. However, using them is a tricky thing. They consume that power for a rather long time constantly, before the thermostat switches off. This leads to quite noticably warming of the cable. Warm cable = softening of the insulation = higher risk of insulation failure if one would step on the cable or bend it sharply, etc. But you also have to carefully watch the wall socket. I have seen plenty of regular wall sockets burned out because those heaters were plugged into them. The problem is contact resistance. The contacts in the socket tend to wear out. Higher contact resistance = higher losses = substantial heat generation at that contact point.

 

[Christian Klippel]

This just show you did not read the post in context, which was about a 'normal wall socket' in general and not specifically about a socket that Rossi used.

If you are not a native speaker of english this would be understandable. But CK's post was a general response to a question and did not address the specifics of Rossi's different runs.

This is your sentence that CK responded to
"It is trivial to deliver 15Kw through an ordinary extension lead from a "wall socket"..?

You err in thinking that CK's comment addressed the second sentence of your post, CK only quoted that one line.

Exactly, thanks!

Greetings,

Chris

 

[nathan]

acementhead, could you use the quote facility please? (the " button allows multquoting. Press it for each message you want to multiquote and then press the QUOTE button). The timestamps you're using are for your local time, which isn't globally unique.

 

[acementhead]

Have you ever constructed anything? Would you consider using existing pieces if they suited your purpose or would you reinvent all the components?

Yes pteridine put together a Hikers One


peeblesoriginals.com/projects/hikers/51hikers11.jpg


from a kit-set of parts at age eight(probably nearly ninth birthday- a long time ago) used all the supplied parts but had to wind the coils by hand from fine varnished wire. Later from age eleven built and flew diesel powered control line model aircraft. Graduated to the real thing at 16 but never built one(although I know people who have).

Rossi would make his own heating elements if he couldn't get suitable OTS ones. Likely if he used ca 1000 volts. It is not very hard to make a heater element. Jessus.

Anyway are you interested in trying to set up a bet of 100K or over?

I really am busy and don't have time for trivia at present. Take off on international trip in 48 hours. Two weeks. More time when I return.