Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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Manifesto, I have an empty box that is full of the things nobody can find because they do not exist. Some of the more mystical posters over there in Religion and Philosophy are convinced that what's not inside has properties that can be measured. You're welcome to come over and try your luck. In fact, if you like, you can take it home with you. You need not bring a big truck.
 
Well it's not easy to do multi disciplinary research on a completely new phenomenon without funding.



I'd just like to comment on this line. It presupposes at least two misconceptions.

Firstly, is the misconception that Cold Fusion, and it's related "phenomena", haven't received any funding. That's just plain false. Companies like Blacklight Power have received tens of millions of dollars in funding from investment sources. Researchers in Japan have had funding pretty much continuously since the first reports of cold fusion in the 80s. Even agencies like the US Navy's SPAWAR funded research into cold fusion for decades.

So the claim that they haven't had funding is just wrong.

But there's a second, slightly hidden misconception. That is, that the funding we've seen just wasn't enough to research something like cold fusion.

Except that's wrong, too.

Science doesn't have to be ridiculously expensive to be cutting edge. Sure, things like the accelerator research at CERN is expensive; it has to be. Digging a miles-long tunnel in the ground, lining it with accelerators and detectors, and employing enough technicians, engineers and scientists to make it all work is pretty damn expensive.

But that's not what we see in even the most popular Cold Fusion research, the experiments proponents of cold fusion constantly point to to support their claims. All that takes is a bench top setup with some metal powders and some hydrogen inputs, and a little electricity. A few simple detectors that pretty much every university lab already has on hand. A few researchers at most. Maybe a lab tech or student do do the grunt work. Stuff that could be funded for at most hundreds of thousands of dollars, and probably much less. Back when I was a student, the average research grant in Canada was much less that a hundred thousand dollars, and yet, scientists all over the country produced useful work.

But despite that, Cold Fusioneers, doing experiments no more (and quite often, much less) complicated than what I saw at university, despite millions in annual funding, have not produced even one unequivocally positive result.

It's likely not any lack of funding that's causing that.
 
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Manifesto, I have an empty box that is full of the things nobody can find because they do not exist. Some of the more mystical posters over there in Religion and Philosophy are convinced that what's not inside has properties that can be measured. You're welcome to come over and try your luck. In fact, if you like, you can take it home with you. You need not bring a big truck.
"Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson)
 
"Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson)

OK, if you don't want to state and defend your argument in favor of cold fusion, I guess you're just looking to hear other peoples' evidence and conclusions. That's fine.

Cold fusion does not occur. Contrary to early claims, it does not occur in deuterium-loaded precious metals, where the short-lived "evidence" seems to have been due to poor calorimetry, complicated by heat fluxes from electrochemical reactions. Contrary to current claims, it does not occur in hydrogen-loaded nickel, where the only "evidence" appears to have been the product of deliberate fraud. That's it.
 
Since you've already done it, maybe you could help me out with a good example?

There are no good examples, because cold fusion doesn't exist.

If cold fusion were possible and had been observed in laboratory settings, a good example would exist. Thus, anyone claiming that it has been observed should be able to find such an example.

But no such example exists. I'll change my mind when presented with such an example.

It's like if you are at my home with my wife and I. She and I go into the kitchen for a few minutes and I come out alone. I say "Oh, she went out the back to go to the store and pick up some things." You say, "I don't believe you, I think you killed her."
"If I'd killed her, her body would still be there. Take a look, there's no blood, no sign of struggle, and no body."
"If you're so confident about this, you must have already looked, why don't you just show me where the body is?"
:confused::confused:
 
Aepervius is making a statement based on experience.

Again, you are shifting the burden.

My experience is that there is no cold fusion experiment which is well done and reproduced by independent lab in the same manner without fudging and would not be simply explainable by sloppyness of measurement.

YOU came with :
Thank you!

If you're talking of Rossi's stuff i agree, we are still waiting for independent testing. Are you saying that this is true also for all the peer reviewed scientific papers on LENR/cold fusion published in mainstream journals for the last 25 years?

This is not entirely true. Progress have been made, but I agree, it's not easy to do real science outside the scientific community.



Yes, we're still waiting for 100% reproducibility, but there is hundreds of studies corroborating excess heat and other products that can be explained only by something nuclear. I's enough with just ONE of this experiments being correct, to completely change everything.

So, you disregard Fleishmann & Pons' original findings of excess heat. Why?

So you are either JAQing us off, or you are definitively claiming that there are such experiment which can be at least partially reproduced and cannot be explained by anything but nuclear reaction.

thus the burden is on YOU to provide such a link to such an experiment. Yet you argued and argued with us without providing such paper.

Preliminary Conclusion : you have no such a paper.
 
When something has both positive and negative results, that is a very big indication that there is nothing there.

Why is this still going on.

The horse is now only bones. :deadhorse

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Again, you are shifting the burden.

My experience is that there is no cold fusion experiment which is well done and reproduced by independent lab in the same manner without fudging and would not be simply explainable by sloppyness of measurement.
Then it should be easy for you to give an example, a good eye opener, to illustrate your point.
 
Then it should be easy for you to give an example, a good eye opener, to illustrate your point.

That's not how it works. You made the positive claim, you are the one to show the evidence. So far all you did is tap-dancing around and trying to shift the burden to others. It's a really simple concept, you should be able to understand that. If you have nothing to show then say so. If you do, be aware that you are no longer in any position to make any claim that there is something to cold fusion. OTOH, if you continue to make positive claims, but still refuse to show evidence, then one must assume that you have none. That wouldn't be a surprise, since no one else has any evidence for cold fusion working either.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Then it should be easy for you to give an example, a good eye opener, to illustrate your point.
This is called shifting the burden of proof and is fallacious. No amount of pointing to white swans will disprove the claim that black swans exist. Just one black swan will suffice to prove it.

Cold fusion is the black swan here. If you think cold fusion is a reality, point, link, quote or provide reference to the best study you know of that supports it - you were the one who claimed many "well done experiments published in peer reviewed mainstream journals, often by world leading scientists" existed. Give the best example you know.
 
Well, I'm not a physicist but I've been looking at this lecture: MIT Cold Fusion IAP 2014, with Peter Hagelstein and Mitchell Swartz, and I find Hagelstein's model for LENR very interesting.

Maybe someone here could comment on it?

I'm not allowed to post links, but it's easy to google.


("You are only allowed to post URLs to websites after you have made 15 posts or more.")

Hi, If you post the link in the following fashion I will fix it for you.

www_somewebsite_org

I can paste it back, but when you look at that lecture, what specific research papers are you interested in discussing?
 
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