Merged Cold Fusion Claims

Status
Not open for further replies.
Emet

Yes you're right, I must.:) :) And I do read Dancing David's posts! May I hope that he returns the compliment? :)

My sense of humour is perhaps too dry.
 
Early news from Greece
Ivy Matt | June 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM | Categories: Uncategorized | URL: http://wp.me/pYQbF-1gy

The Greek website energypress.gr has a recent press release apparently giving details on Defkalion Green Technologies' commercial arrangements ahead of their press conference.

Among the details:

The company's funding is completely private.
The company has €300-400 million in investments.
The company will build three industrial units in Xanthi, Thrace.
Apart from the large demonstration reactor, the company will produce large 1-3 MW units and smaller 10-30 kW household units.
The first prototype reactors will be produced by the end of July, regular production will begin in November, and the first household units will be introduced next January.
The cost of the device (household unit?), used as a water and space heater, will be €4000-5000.
A converter to produce electricity from the unit will cost an extra €500-900.
 
€300-400m. That didn't all come from Rossi's pocket, for sure. So what is the source of this private funding? But I'm glad it's not public funding, that the impoverished Greek taxpayers have had to stump up.

Building THREE industrial units PLUS prototypes, all by July, sounds impressive. If they achieve it, I promise to say :) WOW :)
 
Craig B said:
Emet

Yes you're right, I must.:) :) And I do read Dancing David's posts! May I hope that he returns the compliment? :)

My sense of humour is perhaps too dry.
Click to expand...

Its cool dude, my brain was fried from too much LA Noire and landscaping outside. My sarcasm meter was like totally turned off, as was my memory.

I think it is very funny when I remember it is sarcasm.

The grin is best : + D =:D
 
unclep2k said:
Early news from Greece
Ivy Matt | June 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM | Categories: Uncategorized | URL: http://wp.me/pYQbF-1gy

The Greek website energypress.gr has a recent press release apparently giving details on Defkalion Green Technologies' commercial arrangements ahead of their press conference.

Among the details:

The company's funding is completely private.
The company has €300-400 million in investments.
The company will build three industrial units in Xanthi, Thrace.
Apart from the large demonstration reactor, the company will produce large 1-3 MW units and smaller 10-30 kW household units.
The first prototype reactors will be produced by the end of July, regular production will begin in November, and the first household units will be introduced next January.
The cost of the device (household unit?), used as a water and space heater, will be €4000-5000.
A converter to produce electricity from the unit will cost an extra €500-900.
Click to expand...



Why is it that these second hand press release always exagerate what the original says?

http://translate.google.com/transla.../ca24b411-93c5-4baf-8a5f-2d06d74e9424&act=url

Presented on Thursday, finally, officially, the energy investment project of the Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies SA on the industrial application of scientific discovery of the famous "cold fusion nickel and hydrogen" Italian professors Sergio Foccardi and Andrea Rossi has created great interest internationally.

Investing a total budget of 300 to 400 million, includes three industrial units, which will settle in Thrace. 1 – 3 MW. This will produce a massive reactor nickel - hydrogen, the second, based on the reactor will produce household units for heat energy capacity 10 - 30 KW and the third will produce large units 1 - 3 MW

Based on the timing of investors by the end of July we produced the first laboratory reactors, and since November there will be regular industrial production
Click to expand...

That means the total investment by the end of the plan will be 300-400 million Euro, not that they have the money in hand. That is what they hope to raise to make things happen.

Look at the bold, while garbled it is saying, IF we get the MONEY then we will build in JULY.
 
Dancing David

Thanks. So it's give us €400m *first* and then we may deign to sell you generators for €5,900 a pop!

Scratch that WOW.
 
Crawdaddy said:
My comment was meant to convey the thought that a 4 meter hose might dissipate a significant portion of the 1.5kW of heat and that the steam would condense in the hose. Thus it would be impossible to measure the input power by observing the output.

Rossi is certainly not (nor would any professor of physics) measuring steam quality at the end of the 4 meter hose.
Click to expand...

You're so nearly there. Yes, it is impossible to observe the input power by observing the output. Your problem is that instead of coming to the obvious conclusion - that Rossi did not actually measure the input power and therefore his claims are entirely baseless - you're instead assuming that he actually did have a good measurement and therefore must have done something different from what he has actually stated.

It's virtually a textbook example of believer arguments. Instead of looking at the workings and coming to a conclusion that may well be different from the claimed conclusion, you're instead starting with the conclusion and then trying to find excuses why the workings don't actually seem to lead to it.

The steam quality must be measured at the output of the device.
Click to expand...

You see, so nearly there. Not "must", "should". The steam quality should be measured at the output of the device. The fact that it apparently was not does not mean that actually it was and therefore the results stand, it simply means the results are nonsense.
 
Kid Eager said:
Oh, another observation - 28m/s is just over 100kmh... even as an airflow that would be somewhat noticeable.
Click to expand...

"Somewhat noticeable"?? According to the link that I put into my original
message (scale used in weather reporting) it is a "violent storm"!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale
Scroll down to the table and find an entry that corresponds to 28m/sec.

Btw, after some thinking, we need to make some upward adjustment to
my calculation.
I calculated the volume production of the steam as 2.36 liter / sec at STP (standard temperature and pressure). The current version of IUPAC's standard is a temperature of 0 °C (273.15 K, 32 °F)

However, 0C vapor would only exist in very diluted state in some other gases.
If we are talking about pure steam, its temperature have to be 100C or above.
So we need to talk volume at 100C. Since all gases expand with temperature increase, we have to apply Clapeyron's law:

PV=nRT

where n is the amount of substance of gas and R is the ideal, or universal, gas constant, equal to the product of Boltzmann's constant and Avogadro's constant. In SI units, n is measured in moles, and T in kelvin. R has the value 8.314 J·K−1·mol−1.

Given that n,R and P are constant, and temperature is changing from
T1 to T2, we get volume change:

V1 = nRT1/p
V2 = nRT2/p

V2/V1= T2/T1
For T1=273 K (0C), and T2 = 373 K (100C) we get
V1/V2 = 1.37

This increases the volume rate estimate from
2.36 liter / sec to 3.23 liter / sec.
This changes the exhaust rate from 5 mm radius pipe from
29.87 m /sec
to
40.9 m /sec

Our Rossi-weather just got upgraded from violent storm to
a hurricane (e.g ≥ 32.7 m/s = Hurricane by Beaufort scale).

So why are we seeing only puny wisps of water that are floating
and curling their way at some lazy centimeters / sec?
Looking at it, they appear to be even less than expected for electrical
heating coil of 750 W.
Ah, but there is an explanation! If all the water that is coming into
the machine is not getting anywhere, but just accumulating withing
the apparatus (which was empty before) it has to be heated! So the
coil's heating power is getting used to warm up the accumulating water
instead of producing steam. Once the apparatus is full, of cause
the "demonstration" has to be restarted (that is why they don't last very
long, at least not with continuous supervision which would prevent
quickly emptying the water from the casing)...

Regards,
Yevgen
 
Question..at the advertised flow rate of the Krivit demo, how much energy would it take to get 20 degreec water up to 100 degrees regardless of steam quality?
 
Cuddles

You're so nearly there. Yes, it is impossible to observe the input power by observing the output. Your problem is that instead of coming to the obvious conclusion - that Rossi did not actually measure the input power and therefore his claims are entirely baseless - you're instead assuming that he actually did have a good measurement and therefore must have done something different from what he has actually stated.
Click to expand...

Your condescending attitude is not appreciated. You consistently fail to understand what I am saying.

Here is a summary of my position: The only explanation for the observed results is fraud or legitimacy. There is absolutely no way the results to date are consistent with honest error.

ou see, so nearly there. Not "must", "should". The steam quality should be measured at the output of the device. The fact that it apparently was not does not mean that actually it was and therefore the results stand, it simply means the results are nonsense.
Click to expand...

The steam quality is always measured at the outlet in every experiment so far. Please do some basic research before going off on strange tangents. You might actually make a significant contribution to this discussion.
 
unclep2k said:
Question..at the advertised flow rate of the Krivit demo, how much energy would it take to get 20 degreec water up to 100 degrees regardless of steam quality?
Click to expand...

One thing to keep in mind is that there is no guaranty that _all_ the water
is even reaching 100C. The more likely arrangement is
a lot of pipes or empty space in the device where water is stored,
and a heater that is located in a much smaller volume close to
the temperature sensor.

This way small amount of water can be happily boiling, producing
these little wisps of vapor that we observed lazily coming out from the end of the pipe and keeping the sensor at 100C, while most of the water is just sitting there, slowly warming up. Once reservoir is filled, "demonstration" stops. E.g the whole thing is never close to thermal equilibrium.

Regards,
Yevgen
 
Yevgen Barsukov said:
One thing to keep in mind is that there is no guaranty that _all_ the water
is even reaching 100C. The more likely arrangement is
a lot of pipes or empty space in the device where water is stored,
and a heater that is located in a much smaller volume close to
the temperature sensor.

This way small amount of water can be happily boiling, producing
these little wisps of vapor that we observed lazily coming out from the end of the pipe and keeping the sensor at 100C, while most of the water is just sitting there, slowly warming up. Once reservoir is filled, "demonstration" stops. E.g the whole thing is never close to thermal equilibrium.

Regards,
Yevgen
Click to expand...


Very likely.

Even in steam locomotives we see this effect; When you are bringing the boiler online, the majority of the boiling happens around the firebox, with the water at the front tube sheet not boiling and not even being close to thermal equilibrium.

Generally, too, the front is where water is introduced to the boiler so as not to damp steam generation as quickly and not to put thermal stress on the firebox, which can least tolerate it do to the number of staybolts and corners.

BTW, enough surface area and you can evolve a considerable amount of saturated water vapor without any boiling happening at all.

Also, can anybody tell me about this steam dryer he claims to have used?

Most times, a steam dryer means a set of baffles that attempts to keep liquid water droplets from getting into the engine, but there is another sort of steam dryer that would absolutely be cheating; A superheater.

In fact, any steam engine that does not have a superheater is said to be using saturated steam; That is, there still may be mist, though no large droplets.

If he used a superheater, there is your rogue energy input, right there.
 
Crawdaddy said:
The steam quality is always measured at the outlet in every experiment so far.
Click to expand...
Can you tell us about the instrument that was used to determine the steam quality in all of these experiments?

As far as I can see, there have been no experiments published - just public demos. In these demos, no instrument to measure 'steam quality' was used. What was used was a relative humidity probe. The problems with this and other problems with the demo have already been pointed out in the thread, e.g. Here are some relevant posts...

In science, a badly performed experiment (or demo) is a null result. It is impossible to draw any conclusions from it. It is a case of Rossi having to do the experiment again but competently this time, e.g. with the right instruments used correctly.

There is no explanation for the observed results because there are no valid observations.
The best we can say so far is that Rossi has re-invented the water heater. €5,900 seems a lot for a kettle though :D.
 
Last edited:
Reality Check

Can you tell us about the instrument that was used to determine the steam quality in all of these experiments?
Click to expand...

In the experiments in question the steam quality was measured at the outlet of the chimney. A temperature probe was used to confirm that the steam was above boiling (superheated at atmospheric pressure). Super heated steam cannot by definition be wet.

The relative humidity data is irrelevant to the measurement. However according to the vortex mailing list it will measure 100%RH at 100C regardless of the steam quality, and a lower value for super heated steam above that temperature.

The uncertainty of these measurements is obvious but the measurements are still plausible. The latest experiment is the most questionable because of the high input power (which was only seen once whereas in other demos it was seen to vary over time).

Again the only reasonable explanation is legitimacy or fraud.

If you watch the most recent half hour video about the e-cat you will see claims of explosions and 120kW with no input power made by Levi as well as wild claims made by a multitude of other who are not Rossi. Even if it is shown that error may be a plausible explanation for the Krivit video the other claims make honest error impossible.

here is a link to the video:

http://vimeo.com/25501969

In summary the latest video from krivit does not in any way prove the legitimacy of the e-cat but other tests are conclusive enough to eliminate honest error, which is certainly not eliminated in the most recent test. Keep in mind the latest test comes with the least data available for any of the tests so far and so is the easiest to poke holes in.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom