Merged Cold Fusion Claims

Status
Not open for further replies.
pteridine said:
Given the levels of adrenaline and outrage I have induced in the other posters on this board, I can't imagine what they would accept. Probably a Nobel prize would do it but even then they may claim 'fraud,' as that is the word they use regardless of the actual events.
Click to expand...

Wow, you really love your conspiracies.

"You can't imagine what they would accept"? You shouldn't have to imagine very hard. This whole thread is explaining what people would accept. An ordinary power measurement, carried out with ordinary power-measurement equipment, by the ordinary power-measurement technicians of a longstanding measurement lab like NIST or PTB or NREL.

Power is power. Energy is energy. Their meanings, and the methods used to measure them accurately, are not the subjects of any dispute or controversy. Measure the power, measure the energy, in the standard and indisputable ways, and the results will stand.
 
ben m said:
Power is power. Energy is energy. Their meanings, and the methods used to measure them accurately, are not the subjects of any dispute or controversy. Measure the power, measure the energy, in the standard and indisputable ways, and the results will stand.
Click to expand...

Therein lies the rub. One individual's 'indisputable ways' is not another's. People like to dispute, as seen on this thread.
Because I am, according to you, ignorant of business and technology development, I must ask you a few things to help understand your position. You hired a team to handle the details of a technology that you were developing. Was that technology completely new or an improvement of an existing technology, such as new materials for cell phone touch screens? Was that technology capable of profoundly changing geopolitics over the next few decades? If you had what Rossi claims to have, what company would you hire to handle the details?
 
Are you seriously suggesting that this phony power device is somehow so earth shattering that it requires new math and new standards and new machines to measure it?

What, does it give off high quality electrons?
 
pteridine said:
they may claim 'fraud,' as that is the word they use regardless of the actual events.
Click to expand...

I want to clarify this.

Do you, pteridine, think that an AC clamp ammeter (the only input-power readout in the operation Rossi permitted Levi et. al. to videotape) is able to measure the input power of an electrical device? Yes or no. (The actual answer is "no". Power depends on both AC and DC current and voltage.) The "actual events" of the Levi demo are that they didn't measure the input power.

Do you, pteridine, think that the volume of water that escapes an opaque pipe can be used (at 2200 J/g, the heat of vaporization) to measure the output power of a boiler? (The answer is "no"; this number applies only to pure dry steam; there is no evidence that water flowing from a pipe is condensed from dry steam.) The "actual events" of the steam-puffer demo are that they didn't measure the output power.

If you are buying a car, and you want to know the gas-mileage, you expect that the EPA has measured the gas they put into the car, and measured how far they drove. "This car gets 200 miles per gallon. We put in 1.001 gallons of gas and drove around the block, and stopped for nachos, I don't know but it was like 200 miles! That's 200 mpg! Then we drove from Madison to Fargo on ... dude, where was the needle when we left? Above 1/2? So it's like 200 mpg."

Is it too much to ask, pteridine, that someone claiming to have discovered/invented a power-generating device should measure the input and output power? I don't think that this is some crazy skeptical idea, do you?
 
Mister Earl said:
Are you seriously suggesting that this phony power device is somehow so earth shattering that it requires new math and new standards and new machines to measure it?

What, does it give off high quality electrons?
Click to expand...

I don't know how you read that into my comment. It gives off standard quality heat but the measurement of input power is what many are fussing about. The high frequency power that can trick certain meters is of little import when the output is ten times the input but the OCD sufferers want to check for it anyway. One person thought that 30kW of microwave power might be beamed into the device in a room full of people. No one coagulated or boiled away so we can assume that it is not a microwave cheat.
The geopolitical comment has to do with the source. Nickel producing countries,assuming that the effect is not general, will be the new oil patch as use of petroleum based fuels decline. Think about how that may change things a bit.
 
ben m said:
I want to clarify this.
Is it too much to ask, pteridine, that someone claiming to have discovered/invented a power-generating device should measure the input and output power? I don't think that this is some crazy skeptical idea, do you?
Click to expand...

That is a good idea and that is what we are waiting for. Because it was not properly measured does not mean that Rossi is a fraud. It means that it was not properly measured. People claim that his imprisonment was due to fraud and it was not. It was due to retroactive environmental laws. He was exonerated.
His business immediately before this [EON Srl] was modification of MAN diesel top ends to burn biofuels in diesel gen sets. That was also not a fraud.

Will you enlighten me about your business development? I need to understand why it is taking so long to develop a product such as a completely new energy source.
 
Here is a decision matrix for you.
Code: 
              |  Honest inventor  |  Honest inventor   |   Fraudster       |
	      | with working tech | with failed tech   | w/ fake device    |
--------------+-------------------+--------------------+-------------------+
professional  |A device works,    |C  device shown not |E  device shown    | 
measurement   | results trusted.  |   to work,         |  to fail; marks   | 
techniques    | you're rich!      |  move on w/life    |  sue or go home   | 
--------------+-------------------+--------------------+-------------------+
dubious       |B device sort of   |D  device sort of   |F  device sort of  | 
measurement   | works, invites    |  fails, invites    | works; invites    | 
techniques    | doubt, maybe some |  doubt, waste      | doubt, but some   | 
              | investors stay    |  months of life    | marks stay hooked |
--------------+-------------------+--------------------+-------------------+

Read this carefully and think about it. For the honest inventor, moving to the top row---cell A or C---is ALWAYS BETTER than staying in the bottom row. An honest inventor ALWAYS wants to improve their measurement techniques to erase doubts. If you're stuck in Cell B or D (even if you're not sure which) you want to move to cell A or C. If you're stuck in B but really sure your device works, you especially want to move up because you're sure the destination is A.

The fraudster does this backwards. The fraudster NEEDS to stay in cell F, because F is better than E.

A fraudster is the only sort of experimenter who sticks with dubious measurements when better ones are possible. Rossi has been choosing (difficult! expensive!) dubious measurements, and avoiding (easy, cheap, turnkey) professional measurements for at least three years. He's in the bottom row on purpose. He's avoiding the top row on purpose. Therefore, he really really seems to be a fraud.

There is lots of corroborating evidence. Like his past fraud conviction.

Your evidence that he is not a fraud? He says he isn't, and you believe him.

(Please note: I don't universally slap the "fraud" label on cold-fusioners. Pons and Fleischmann were not fraudsters, just gullible. Mosier-Boss is not a fraudster, she's just deeply inexperienced at neutron measurements. Widom and Larsen are not fraudsters, just crackpots. Peter Hagelstein is not a fraudster, and he's not a moron, I just disagree with him.)
 
pteridine said:
The geopolitical comment has to do with the source. Nickel producing countries,assuming that the effect is not general, will be the new oil patch as use of petroleum based fuels decline. Think about how that may change things a bit.
Click to expand...

Which requires assuming that this isn't a scam. When it blatantly is.
 
pteridine said:
Will you enlighten me about your business development? I need to understand why it is taking so long to develop a product such as a completely new energy source.
Click to expand...

I have a patent in process now and am shopping for licensees. It's energy-related. That's all I'm saying here.

There is nothing to understand. It doesn't take that long---businesses want to move fast. R&D costs money. Waiting around costs money. The sooner you have sales---even imperfect sales of imperfect parts to a weird subset of customers---the sooner you're making money instead of spending it.

This is quadruply true for Rossi's claimed devices. Three years ago he claimed to have a piece of pipe that took in hydrogen, got electrically preheated, and then rose to boiling-water temperatures. If that were true, it's a plug-and-play replacement for any existing water heater. The Levi device simply got ultrahot. If true, that's a plug-and-play replacement for the boiler tubes in any steam power plant.

It's not like you have to design a pretty case, a sticky user interface, and a social marketing campaign. You're just selling functional metal pipe bits to General Electric. You give them a pipe with an industry-standard flange on one end (to bolt to their boiler or whatever), industry-standard connections for heaters and hydrogen, and a datasheet that tells them how to turn it on and off.

There is no rational explanation for why a working technology---a technology easy enough to mass-produce that Rossi claims to have handbuilt a megawatt's worth in a shipping container---would not be on the market years ago. You can't blame "incompetence"---remember that Rossi (supposedly) has investors, and angel investors don't allow "incompetence" to run the show. (Again, now that I am in this world a bit myself I see how it works.) Competent investors, especially angels/venture investors, do not just write checks and wait for the recipient to stop bumbling. They'll send in their own mentors and managers to help. If Rossi doesn't know how to turn an idea into a product into cashflow, his investors will ask him to sit down with someone who does know.

There IS a rational explanation for why the ECat is not on the market. That explanation is: it's not a working technology, it's a scam. The only question, in my mind, is whether it's an investment scam (i.e., he's promoting the e-cat technology to attract "investment" checks from gullible investors) or a pig-in-a-poke scam (i.e., planning to sell $20k worth of foil-wrapped pipe fittings for $20M). What fact about Rossi is not explained by this hypothesis, pteridine?
 
pteridine said:
That seems like a reasonable thing to do; the problem now is to select a deciding factor. One event could be having a licensee company reproduce the device but that would require belief that the licensee was not lying about it. A salable product would take longer as Rossi continually underestimates the time it takes to fund and develop new technology. Maybe the best is to wait until the investors come forward with a promise and hold them to some timeline for it or hope for a true third party test.
The other thing that must be settled is what we are going to bet on. Do we use LENR from any company as one leg [LENR exists or doesn't] and LENR from Rossi as another [Rossi has it or doesn't have it] or is this about Rossi, alone? If LENR is shown to be real by another entity before Rossi, can we assume that he has it, or some variation, also?
Given the levels of adrenaline and outrage I have induced in the other posters on this board, I can't imagine what they would accept. Probably a Nobel prize would do it but even then they may claim 'fraud,' as that is the word they use regardless of the actual events.
Click to expand...

Give me a voltmeter an ammeter and an hour with the machine.
 
pteridine said:
The vested interest was the funding going to U Rochester for hot fusion research.
Click to expand...
That is a rather inane excuse for a "vested interest", pteridine.
It is a good way though to emphasize your hypocrisy in citing a review where every author has identical "vested interested", i.e. were paid to research "cold fusion".
On the other hand it sounds paranoid. You seem to think that every scientist in the world will sell their opinions for your rumors about unidentified grant money.
ETA: grant money for areas that Huizenga was not even working on!

I am glad that you are still able to generate random silly notions (even paranoiac sounding!) and then write about them. It is a not very unique talent of yours that you have assiduously developed in the course of this thread :rolleyes:.
 
Last edited:
dlorde said:
I see Rossi's ECAT is taking pre-orders for the 1MW plant for delivery next year. Is this going to be the final phase of take-the-money-and-run, or can he spin it out another year?
Click to expand...

Yay! Let the entertaining crackpot flailing commence, uh, some time next year. My prediction: in the middle of next year, Rossi will announce that the first units have been delivered, from an unidentified assembly plant (not at any of his previously-known Bologna/Florida/New Hampshire addresses of course!), to anonymous customers in unnamed countries. He will assure us that the units are installed and working and the customers are very happy with them.

(I wish to reiterate that I would be spectacularly happy if Rossi were to confound all expectations, including my own, and sell an E-Cat that actually generates energy and saves the world from global warming. I would also be happy if a Nigerian ex-banker actually transferred $1M into my bank account. This sort of hope doesn't change my analysis of the situation.)
 
Here's something interesting:

http://ecat.com/news/hydro-fusion-pilot-customer-ecat-1-mw-plant

"Hydro fusion", which appears to be a Rossi shell company in Sweden, is looking for a "customer" for the strangest proposition I've heard of. They're saying that Rossi is looking for someone to accept installation of a Rossi-funded, Rossi-controlled E-cat, plug it into their own heat-using machinery ... and pay "only" for the energy they consume. What the heck?

If the E-cat works, the power output is basically free---why charge for it?

If the E-cat needs publicity, why not conduct a non-scam public demo?

My guess is (if the offer is real) he wants someone to rope into a fake "confirmation" of the E-Cat. The "customer" will be expected to accept 1MW worth of hot water coming into his pipes, shake hands on a big press release saying "ROSSI ECAT SUCCESSFUL, 6 MONTHS OPERATIONS AT MALMO ERSATZ FRAUDWERK AG" ... without, of course, being given the opportunity to inspect the E-Cat, measure its energy consumption, ask why Rossi has to deliver truckloads of fuel oil to it, etc..
 
Even if he did sell some to a few countries run by dictators (like north of Afghanistan) that wouldn't be any different to the scumbags that convinced so many countries to buy his fake bomb detectors at really high prices. The only thing it would prove (reconfirm) is that some seriously uneducated people are in positions of power.
 
ben m said:
Here's something interesting:

http://ecat.com/news/hydro-fusion-pilot-customer-ecat-1-mw-plant

"Hydro fusion", which appears to be a Rossi shell company in Sweden, is looking for a "customer" for the strangest proposition I've heard of. They're saying that Rossi is looking for someone to accept installation of a Rossi-funded, Rossi-controlled E-cat, plug it into their own heat-using machinery ... and pay "only" for the energy they consume. What the heck?

If the E-cat works, the power output is basically free---why charge for it?

If the E-cat needs publicity, why not conduct a non-scam public demo?

My guess is (if the offer is real) he wants someone to rope into a fake "confirmation" of the E-Cat. The "customer" will be expected to accept 1MW worth of hot water coming into his pipes, shake hands on a big press release saying "ROSSI ECAT SUCCESSFUL, 6 MONTHS OPERATIONS AT MALMO ERSATZ FRAUDWERK AG" ... without, of course, being given the opportunity to inspect the E-Cat, measure its energy consumption, ask why Rossi has to deliver truckloads of fuel oil to it, etc..
Click to expand...


Would you like to buy my pig, it's right here in this sack, no I can't let you see it or it might escape but you can see it move and hear the squeal.
 
tsig said:
Would you like to buy my pig, it's right here in this sack, no I can't let you see it or it might escape but you can see it move and hear the squeal.
Click to expand...
Notice that the announcement of the deal was made on June 10 and the proposal was to take effect as
Scheduled Installation time by late fall 2013.
Click to expand...
It did not and it will not. Simply another of Rossi's delaying devices.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom