Moderated Coin Flipper

[Chanakya]

What do you think now???

uhhh, hadn't wanted to get drawn in. Just that quiet little cuss, and then back to lurking, would've been nice. Except my tiny little cuss gets cussed, and you then you pull this out from that other thread.

I don't see that thread replicated here, nor even approximated here.

As for the rest of what I think, I ...would rather not say it! Not because they're deep profound thoughts, but because they're completely obvious thoughts, and so not worth voicing; and because I don't want to add to what's going on here. (No, don't take that to mean that that other thread's gotten replicated here, it hasn't.)

Liked what you were doing in that other thread, though, the one that this one references. Arguments spot on. And this thread, as well, your taking the trouble to do this app thing, that's pretty cool. Except, well, except for a few things ...but wth, let that go.

 

[theprestige]

Anecdotal and generalization fallacies... yes... so now you know the behaviour of all people who write programs because you know one who does.

: dl :

I'm not claiming to know how every good software developer behaves. I'm just saying I've noticed a trend among good software developers of my acquaintance. You're bucking that trend.

Also, I've made a career in IT. Everything from service desk to product support to devops to site reliability engineering. I've met hundreds of people whose day jobs involved writing computer programs in one capacity or another. And none of them ones behaved the way you do about their code.

To the point where it's an extremely (uniquely?) unusual occurrence to meet someone who writes code but refuses to describe details of their implementation when asked.

Really... then you have not met anyone who works on anything that matters or is of any consequence whatsoever.

No, I think it's pretty much the opposite. It's been especially the software developers who were working on serious projects with real business value who were the most excited to share the details of their implementations.

This thread actually makes a good counterpoint: Your coin flipper program is about as inconsequential as this kind of thing can be. And your attitude is almost diametrically opposed to that of software developers who are working on something important. In my experience, at least. I dunno, maybe you learned software development in a shop with a really toxic workplace culture? And so you've normalized some toxic attitudes and behaviors?

 

[Leumas]

You claim it to be a red herring, a distraction. It is not. The matter speaks to the reliability of your claims.

Simple (and appropriate) questions were asked about one of your claims. You repeated dodged and weaved instead of providing a simple answer. Reasonable conclusions were draw based on your lack of response: Your claim was not to be trusted.

Despite your lack of candor, more evidence about your claim was uncovered. It supported your admission you are not a great computer programmer, and it revealed the extent you implemented something for the so-called edge case. That being effectively nothing at all.

So, your claim to have implemented code to model the possibility of a coin landing on its edge was a lie.

The above more egregious slander is very amusing in the extent of its strawmanning... stemming from lack of understanding of the principles involved.

But... nary an attempt yet to actually do an app that does what you demand be done...

Do it yourself man... come on... I doubt very much you can even begin to do it.

 

[Darat]

The only honest way to address the edge case would be insanely complicated, involving friction and wind and vibration and the plethora of other physical variables. That's the whole problem with any simulator that purports to mimic the natural world. It can't be anything more than a limited artificial approximation.

And is easily side-stepped anyway - assume the coin toss is one you do on your hand where you bring your hand down over the top of one hand, you can never get an edge call on that one.

 

[Leumas]

I'm not claiming to know how every good software developer behaves.

I'm just saying I've noticed a trend among good software developers of my acquaintance. You're bucking that trend.

Yes... the book definition of Anecdotal and generalization fallacies...

... I've noticed a trend among good software developers of my acquaintance. You're bucking that trend.

For me to buck your fallaciously concluded trend about all "good software engineers" I would have to be one and then not fit into your fallaciously concluded trend.... no???

So thanks for ASSUMING I am a "good software engineer".

Also, I've made a career in IT. Everything from service desk to product support to devops to site reliability engineering. I've met hundreds of people whose day jobs involved writing computer programs in one capacity or another. And none of them ones behaved the way you do about their code.

Yes... thanks again... for ASSUMING that my job is writing computer programs and ASSUMING that I am a "good software engineer"... it is only your assumptions I assure you... but hey thanks for the compliment.

• Proverbs 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.

And meeting 100s of them is not meeting thousands or millions of them... and they evidently were not working on anything that is of any consequences or else BRAGGING to you about it would have had them fired.

To the point where it's an extremely (uniquely?) unusual occurrence to meet someone who writes code but refuses to describe details of their implementation when asked.

As I said... you obviously have met low level programmers who did not work on anything of import.

If they did and BRAGGED to you about it they would have been in breach of their contracts and fired.

No, I think it's pretty much the opposite. It's been especially the software developers who were working on serious projects with real business value who were the most excited to share the details of their implementations.

Evidently you must be a very loveable guy for people to risk their jobs over bragging to you about their work if it were of any real value.

I doubt it very much... usually people who brag are either liars or fools or not at all doing anything worth bragging about... but in their little minds it is.

This thread actually makes a good counterpoint: Your coin flipper program is about as inconsequential as this kind of thing can be.

Yes... I never claimed anything else.... but your CONCERN is well noted.

And your attitude is almost diametrically opposed to that of software developers who are working on something important.

Really... so all the software "engineers" you claim you met so many of just go around BRAGGING all the time???

In my experience, at least.

Yes... the book definition of Anecdotal and generalization fallacies...

I dunno, maybe you learned software development

there you go again ASSUMING things...

in a shop with a really toxic workplace culture? And so you've normalized some toxic attitudes and behaviors?

So unless people are bragging and divulging work details to you then they are working in a toxic work culture???

Have you ever heard of corporate espionage and stealing technology???

If a person working on anything of import goes around BRAGGING about the details of his/her work they would be fired from any job that is of any value.

Tell those braggart "engineers" this verse...

• James 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

 

[Thermal]

And is easily side-stepped anyway - assume the coin toss is one you do on your hand where you bring your hand down over the top of one hand, you can never get an edge call on that one.

Ah, but then we'd have to factor in the guys exhaustion from doing this 10 million times. Possibly a strike and/or Amnesty International shutting the whole thing down.

 

[Leumas]

And is easily side-stepped anyway - assume the coin toss is one you do on your hand where you bring your hand down over the top of one hand, you can never get an edge call on that one.

Exactly... thus rendering all this edge claptrap totally of no consequence whatsoever to the randomness of the process.

Making such a big hubbub about it and claiming that not accounting for it ... or not doing it precisely to their commanded standards that they impose... is of such paramount importance that it renders any simulation of the randomness of a coin toss totally invalid... is nothing but a deliberate red herring... or... utter lack of understanding of the principles of probability and probability distribution and of software simulations and of PRNGs or TRNGS.

All out of grave CONCERN to deny that randomness and indeterminism exist let alone that they are inherent and part and parcel of the underlying fabric of the universe.

And then accusing me of lying about it and DEMANDING I PRODUCE my code for their inspection and slander me for not genuflecting to their commands.

Then hacking the code (probably paid someone to do it) and proving that their slander was lies but doubling down on it with more lies and more slander.

Bloody amazing....

ETA: and all the while not even bothering to use the app to test its results and despite all their demands and criticisms, not a single one offered an app of their own meeting their own COMMANDS to prove my app inferior as they repeatedly and baselessly bare assert of course.

 

[Leumas]

Ah, but then we'd have to factor in the guys exhaustion from doing this 10 million times. Possibly a strike and/or Amnesty International shutting the whole thing down.

So a human cannot do it physically and you refuse to accept a simulation... all out of concern to keep bare asserting that randomness is an illusion?

 

[Thermal]

So a human cannot do it physically and you refuse to accept a simulation... all out of concern to keep bare asserting that randomness is an illusion?

No, actually, I meant what I said. A simulation is artificial pretty much by definition, and you need to be prudent in extracting real world conclusions from it.

 

[theprestige]

Yes... the book definition of Anecdotal and generalization fallacies...

I'm not generalizing. I'm making a specific inference based on my general experience.

For me to buck your fallaciously concluded trend about all "good software engineers" I would have to be one and then not fit into your fallaciously concluded trend.... no???

So thanks for ASSUMING I am a "good software engineer".

Touche. That was ill-worded on my part. I don't think you're a good software developer. I think your attitude towards sharing details of your implementation when asked runs counter to the ideals of good software development. I think that if you bring this attitude to your workplace, it will tend to result in low team morale, lack of cooperation, customer dissatisfaction, and other hallmarks of a poorly-run and under-performing software development team.

Yes... thanks again... for ASSUMING that my job is writing computer programs and ASSUMING that I am a "good software engineer"... it is only your assumptions I assure you... but hey thanks for the compliment.

I'm actually inferring the opposite, based on your behavior and my general experience with software developers.

• Proverbs 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.

I assure you, any praise you may have received from me was delivered in error. I apologize for the confusion.

And meeting 100s of them is not meeting thousands or millions of them... and they evidently were not working on anything that is of any consequences or else BRAGGING to you about it would have had them fired.





As I said... you obviously have met low level programmers who did not work on anything of import.

If they did and BRAGGED to you about it they would have been in breach of their contracts and fired.

Evidently you must be a very loveable guy for people to risk their jobs over bragging to you about their work if it were of any real value.

I doubt it very much... usually people who brag are either liars or fools or not at all doing anything worth bragging about... but in their little minds it is.



Yes... I never claimed anything else.... but your CONCERN is well noted.: thumbsup :





Really... so all the software "engineers" you claim you met so many of just go around BRAGGING all the time???





Yes... the book definition of Anecdotal and generalization fallacies...





there you go again ASSUMING things...





So unless people are bragging and divulging work details to you then they are working in a toxic work culture???

Have you ever heard of corporate espionage and stealing technology???

If a person working on anything of import goes around BRAGGING about the details of his/her work they would be fired from any job that is of any value.

Tell those braggart "engineers" this verse...

• James 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

You should seriously consider the possibility that I've met a lot of software developers because, as a site reliability engineer, I work closely with them on business-critical projects, and that my role necessarily grants me as much (or more) access to company confidential information as theirs does. And that being exposed to the details of their implementation is a necessary consequence of working closely with them to produce and maintain important pieces of software.

And no, they're not bragging when they share details. They're excited about the work they're doing, and enjoy talking about it to anyone who expresses an interest.

Have you never actually worked on a software project in a collegial environment, with peers you respect? Because that describes the majority of my decades-long career.

I mean, maybe your experience is that the really good software developers are all colossal jerks. In which case, I would say, find a better class of co-worker, and maybe don't consider that kind of behavior to be a point of pride in the industry.

 

[jt512]

Ah... so now you can see that the SLANDER was an egregious baseless lie???

Good... thanks.... and can you see now how ASSUMING things is not rational?





Now that you hacked my code... clever by the way... and proven the SLANDER of jt512 is nothing but baseless egregious slander like when Flat Earthers accuse NASA of faking the ISS live feed... let's see if an apology is coming or not.

Nobody "hacked" your code. That code is visible to anyone with a single click.

 

[jt512]

Reminds me of "fools are so full of confidence, and wise men so full of doubts".

I guess that would be the binary version of Kruger-Dunning principle.

 

[Leumas]

Nobody "hacked" your code. That code is visible to anyone with a single click.

Ah.... but yet you repeatedly and incessantly kept COMMANDING I give it to you....

So were you dissimulating not knowing it then on purpose... or are you now pretending that you knew how to get but did not bother because you just preferred to waft red herrings around and COMMAND I give it to you myself???

And if you already had it and knew what it is then why the SLANDER and lying that I am lying...

In case it isn't clear to anyone by this point, Leumas's version 2 does not allow for the possibility of an edge-landing, as he claimed.

So when you said the above lie... you knew it was a lie because as you said you had the code all along that proves your lies.

Why did you do it???

If as you said...

Nobody "hacked" your code. That code is visible to anyone with a single click.

Was is it then a deliberate RED HERRING when you incessantly and repeatedly kept on COMMANDING I give it to you???

What function are you using that would allow for an edge-landing?

Could you please just answer the question: how did you program the possibility of an edge-landing?

...So, for the third time: how did you program an edge-landing?

OK. So, I have asked you three times how you programmed an edge-landing into version 2 of your app. You have refused to answer each time.

Therefore, I am going to assume, as I suspected, that your version 2 app does not allow for an edge landing; rather, it, like your version 1 app, just uses a canned bernoulli (pseudo) random number generator. Worse yet, I don't think you actually understand that your own app can't simulate an edge-landing, which is, actually, pretty sad.

In the coin-flipping model you programmed in version 2, what probability of an edge-landing did you use?

 

[Leumas]

I guess that would be the binary version of Kruger-Dunning principle.

Ironically... the above post... would be what you are looking for.

 

[Thermal]

Ah.... but yet you repeatedly and incessantly kept COMMANDING I give it to you....

So were you dissimulating not knowing it then on purpose... or are you now pretending that you knew how to get but did not bother because you just preferred to waft red herrings around and COMMAND I give it to you myself???

And if you already had it and knew what it is then why the SLANDER and lying that I am lying...




So when you said the above lie... you knew it was a lie because as you said you had the code all along that proves your lies.

Why did you do it???

If as you said...




Was is it then a deliberate RED HERRING when you incessantly and repeatedly kept on COMMANDING I give it to you???

Brah. For the purposes of an online discussion thread, everything should be posted out in the open, not force every reader to do your homework. He requested (not by any stretch COMMANDED) that you show your work, as any claimant should.

 

[Leumas]

No, actually, I meant what I said. A simulation is artificial pretty much by definition, and you need to be prudent in extracting real world conclusions from it.

Yup... QED!!!

Brah. For the purposes of an online discussion thread, everything should be posted out in the open, not force every reader to do your homework. He requested (not by any stretch COMMANDED) that you show your work, as any claimant should.

Yup... QED!!!

 

[Leumas]

<snip rationalizations for the anecdotal and generalization fallacies and Bragging programmers>

I mean, maybe your experience is that the really good software developers are all colossal jerks. In which case, I would say, find a better class of co-worker, and maybe don't consider that kind of behavior to be a point of pride in the industry.

So much baseless ASSUMPTIONS .... Amazing...

So engineers who take their work seriously and do not divulge details about their sensitive and serious and important work by BRAGGING about it to others are "colossal jerks"

 

[Leumas]

I've never met a good software developer that wasn't happy to describe the details of their implementation at the slightest sign of interest.

Only to peers s/he respects and wants to show off to.

Have you never actually worked on a software project in a collegial environment, with peers you respect? Because that describes the majority of my decades-long career.
...

ETA: Why then do you expect that I brag to you? On what bases?

 

[theprestige]

So much baseless ASSUMPTIONS .... Amazing...

So engineers who take their work seriously and do not divulge details about their sensitive and serious and important work by BRAGGING about it to others are "colossal jerks"

: dl :

I work with software developers on sensitive and serious and important projects. The good ones are pretty much always happy to discuss the details of their contributions to our projects. I also interact with software developers that are working on open source projects. These are obviously not sensitive, but they can still be serious and important, and many of them are. These developers are of course happy to share the details of their work with anyone who asks.

There's no reason for you to consider your coin flipper "sensitive". There's no reason for you to not share the details when asked.

 

[theprestige]

: dl :

ETA: Why then do you expect that I brag to you? On what bases?

["peers you respect"] Q.E.D.