Merged "Climate change deniers more likely to believe in other CTs"

[smartcooky]

You mean apart from the internal structure of the moon, the origin composition and structure of lunar surface materials, proof that the moon is receding from the Earth, and proof that if we commit resources, time and effort to a project we can achieve all kinds of stuff?

Not to mention that the studies have lead to the understanding that the Moon was formed because of the a giant impact of a Mars-size planet about 50 million years after the Earth was formed.

Here's the top ten discoveries directly attributable to the Apollo Programme

h t t p ://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lunar10.cfm

Of course, an argument can be made that these have no DOLLAR value in and of themselves. Its hard to argue that any pure space research does (the Hubble, Kepler, Giotto, Galileo & the Mars Rover Program would all fall under that same category), but if we are going to expect a dollar value to be attached to the return from scientific endeavour, then much of science simply would not be done.

If their only interest was in a cash return, Johannes Kepler would not have bothered spending his life trying to understand how the planets moved, Galileo Galilei would not have risked his life and liberty by turning his telescope to the sky, and Christopher Columbus would not have bothered setting sail for the New World given that the best evidence at the time indicated that his ships would fall of the edge of the world into an endless abyss.

 

[Croydon Bob]

and Christopher Columbus would not have bothered setting sail for the New World given that the best evidence at the time indicated that his ships would fall of the edge of the world into an endless abyss.

Erm... that's actually an urban legend.

But I agree with your point in general.

ETA: http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM53CY_Christopher_Columbus_and_a_Flat_World

 

[smartcooky]

Erm... that's actually an urban legend.

But I agree with your point in general.

That may be true of the "enlightened" people of the time, but in the 15th century, the "ignorant masses" may not have understood or, for that matter, even cared one way or the other. They were still very superstitious; they believed in magic and witchcraft (still burning witches well into the next century). While I concur that they probably didn't think they would fall off the edge of the world, they nonetheless were fearful of a voyage into the unknown.

 

[sts60]

What about the benefits and the knowledge acquired from the actual Apollo missions to the moon?

Other than the scientific discoveries about the Moon, and the evolution of the Earth-Moon system, and the cislunar and translunar environments, and advances in aerospace program management and materials and manufacturing techniques and astrogation and orbital rendezvous and steerable blunt-body reentry and life support and things like fly-by-wire and a bunch of other stuff which are used today in aerospace engineering, and the actual hardware like the launch and processing facilities used for over a hundred Shuttle flights,... well, gee, I can't think of much.

 

[Sledge]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[Mikeys]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Ask the dark ages.

 

[Mikeys]

Other than the scientific discoveries about the Moon, and the evolution of the Earth-Moon system, and the cislunar and translunar environments, and advances in aerospace program management and materials and manufacturing techniques and astrogation and orbital rendezvous and steerable blunt-body reentry and life support and things like fly-by-wire and a bunch of other stuff which are used today in aerospace engineering, and the actual hardware like the launch and processing facilities used for over a hundred Shuttle flights,... well, gee, I can't think of much.

You are not serious about cislunar and translunar stuff and orbital flights are within Earth orbit. What did you learn about the moon, about fuel consumption on the way to the moon, about the moon gravity?

 

[JohnG]

That may be true of the "enlightened" people of the time, but in the 15th century, the "ignorant masses" may not have understood or, for that matter, even cared one way or the other. They were still very superstitious; they believed in magic and witchcraft (still burning witches well into the next century). While I concur that they probably didn't think they would fall off the edge of the world, they nonetheless were fearful of a voyage into the unknown.

Being "fearful of a voyage into the unknown" isn't wrong though (though it may make you a lousy explorer if said fear stops you from undertaking the voyage in the first place). Being fearful that your ship will fall off the edge of the (flat) Earth is wrong, as humanity had known millennia before Columbus was born. As Croydon Bob pointed out, the "flat earth" theory was not a commonly held belief in 15th century Europe. As far as anyone has been able to determine, the "Columbus disproving the Earth is flat" legend (not sure if this really qualifies as an urban legend, though) was invented (or at least popularly propagated up through the ages to our own time) in the 19th century by Washington Irving in his book about Columbus.

Long story short, steer clear of examples meant to illustrate the wrongheadedness of humanity when said examples are themselves wrongheaded, unless you are trying to be playfully ironic, as I sometimes do when I haul out my standby knee-slapper "There is, to coin a phrase, nothing new under the sun".

 

[smartcooky]

Long story short, steer clear of examples meant to illustrate the wrongheadedness of humanity when said examples are themselves wrongheaded, unless you are trying to be playfully ironic, as I sometimes do when I haul out my standby knee-slapper "There is, to coin a phrase, nothing new under the sun".

Point taken!

Of course, as I originally posted, there is no accounting for stupidity. Five hundred years later........

h t t p://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

 

[JayUtah]

You are not serious...

I assure you he is. Sts60 and I both work professionally in aerospace. He gave you a pretty good summary of the vast advances both in technology and understanding that we gained through Apollo. All you've offered in return are glibly-phrased dismissals. Just say "Thank you."

 

[smartcooky]

I assure you he is. Sts60 and I both work professionally in aerospace. He gave you a pretty good summary of the vast advances both in technology and understanding that we gained through Apollo. All you've offered in return are glibly-phrased dismissals. Just say "Thank you."

Alternatively, since all else has failed, he can play dead now!!

 

[threadworm]

You are not serious about cislunar and translunar stuff and orbital flights are within Earth orbit. What did you learn about the moon, about fuel consumption on the way to the moon, about the moon gravity?

Why is he not serious about cis- and trans-lunar 'stuff'? You think they sat there and did crosswords?

He didn't say orbital flights, he said orbital rendez-vous (the subject of Buzz Aldrin's PhD). All of the Atlas-Agena rendez-vous research by Gemini and the work done on Apollo Earth orbit missions was aimed at the moon landings. That work has a spin off in today's orbital space programme. You think China started from scratch?

Masses of stuff was learnt about the moon and it's gravity thanks to the observations from lunar orbit, the samples obtained on the ground and the recording of the context of those samples. Research papers are still being written on those lunar samples, including recent work on the water locked in lunar soils and the influence of the solar wind on that water. You can ask what's the point of that, but ars gratis artis is good enough for me.

Very little fuel is used on the way to the moon, other than minor course changes. The vast majority of fuel used is either to escape from or enter orbit.

 

[sts60]

You are not serious about cislunar and translunar stuff

Yes, I am. Please don't presume to tell me what I think, especially about subjects you clearly know little about.

These environments were characterized extensively as part of the run-up to Apollo by a host of unmanned missions, by direct Apollo precursors such as Surveyor, and by Apollo itself - especially the ALSEP robotic laboratories deployed by the Apollo astronauts.

and orbital flights are within Earth orbit.

Pay attention; as already pointed out, I said "orbital rendezvous". These techniques were specifically developed for Apollo, and perfected during its precursor Gemini and the pre-landing Apollo flights.

What did you learn about the moon, about fuel consumption on the way to the moon, about the moon gravity?

What we learned about the Moon has already been presented to you, with plenty of resources for you to peruse if you intend to actually learn anything.

We learned about "fuel consumption" during the development of the Apollo trajectories; specifically what delta-Vs were required and when. (In fact, the free-return trajectory is actually an early gravity-assist example.)

We learned about the Moon's uneven gravitational field and the "mascons" of our satellite, which is unlike the distribution of Earth's mass and provides additional insight into the Moon's history.

Are you actually interested in learning anything?

 

[LSSBB]

What about the benefits and the knowledge acquired from the actual Apollo missions to the moon?

That humanity can travel to another celestial body, spend some time on it, and then return.

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

That humanity can travel to another celestial body, spend some time on it, and then return.

And that even the most publicly-accessible, massively documented mega-engineering project of our age is no match for willful ignorance.

 

[JayUtah]

And that even the most publicly-accessible, massively documented mega-engineering project of our age is no match for willful ignorance.

And willful denial.

What did the Apollo missions tell us about the Moon? Well, it only completely rewrote the science for how we theorize the Moon to have formed, and thence our understanding of how the solar system, including Earth, formed. One can pooh-pooh lunar geology all one wants, as nothing more than pretty rocks to look at. But that says more about the pooh-pooher than the rocks.

As for aerospace technology, I started at the bottom of the Apollo stack with the F-1 nozzle skirts, thinking about all the advances that had to be made over existing technology in order to bring all that about, working my way upward. By the time I was halfway up the S-1C stage, I had enough to fill one post. So I started from the LES tower and started working my way down the stack, thinking of what innovations Apollo brought. I was halfway into the service module by the time I had another post's worth of material.

Mikey's handaving at "gravity" and "fuel consumption" are pretty feeble red herrings. The Apollo project capped what we all typically refer to as the Golden Age of Aerospace. To claim it is insignificant is simply ignorant in the extreme.

 

[threadworm]

...I started at the bottom of the Apollo stack with the F-1 nozzle skirts...

You'll go blind...

 

[Sceptic-PK]

Ask the dark ages.

His comment was a joke, which you are clearly too young to understand.

 

[smartcooky]

What did the Apollo missions tell us about the Moon? Well, it only completely rewrote the science for how we theorize the Moon to have formed, and thence our understanding of how the solar system, including Earth, formed.

Yep. The "giant impact" theory of the Moon's formation would probably not even have got a start had it not been for Apollo, and even as recently as this month, the rocks they brought back are giving us fresh insights into and refinements of that theory.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=moon-impact-theory

We are STILL learning from the Apollo programme 43 years later!!!

 

[bit_pattern]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Ask the dark ages.

Point hilariously missed!