CIT Fraud Revealed

fwiw mudlark, I don't think you're an idiot, liar or scumbag, but your heavy bias in favor of your conclusions is blinding you from anything that contradicts them. at least you aren't behaving like CE. but can you concede a point? can you accept the possibility that you're wrong?

But this is not true. These are obnoxious people that scare ordinary people. CIT has accused an old taxi driver of being an agent or confederate of a major government operation to coverup the Pentagon crash. Truely sick people might take this to mean Lloyd England should be dealt with differently that merely following him around wasting his time. Witness Dawn Vignola was apparently very upset by the CIT version of her account.

CIT remind me of the kid who gets beaten everyday by the school bully or by his dad who then goes around beating up the smaller kids in the neighborhood. Stupid? Perhaps not. Crazy? I don't know. Pathetic? Definately.
 
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True... I wouldn't extend the same niceties to Craig or Aldo, but AFAIK mudlark is not them. They are nastier from what I've seen.
 
True... I wouldn't extend the same niceties to Craig or Aldo, but AFAIK mudlark is not them. They are nastier from what I've seen.

I've met members of racist millitias and drank beer in this bar in Itewon Korea.
2470_52822354929_635389929_1469674_7109406_s.jpg

where - at least in 1995 - they hung flags of the Confederacy (although apparently this is the owner). Everyone was very polite to me. but then I'm very white.

I have just found they have a Facebook group for the bar and if you look through the photos they have listed, you'll find pics of Confederate flags. Very nice people though.
 
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"very nice" and "racist militia" does not compute to me (conditional niceness sure...). I don't see racism as analogous with believing crazy theories though. From a KKK speech in the US: "we don't need a reason to hate them!"

weird to hear about Confederate flags there btw! I know Korea is a very racist country, but I wasn't aware any groups there associated so strongly with US racism
 
"very nice" and "racist militia" does not compute to me (conditional niceness sure...). I don't see racism as analogous with believing crazy theories though. From a KKK speech in the US: "we don't need a reason to hate them!"

weird to hear about Confederate flags there btw! I know Korea is a very racist country, but I wasn't aware any groups there associated so strongly with US racism

It's a US military bar. Those are white people waving the Confederate flag - that's why i provided the links. And as I said, very nice white people. At least to me.

My point is that these CIT morons might seem fine enough to you, but they're perfectly willing to terrorize innocent people. They don't have the excuse of being crazy. They know they're terrorizing people and calling them liars. They know they're doing this and have decided to do it anyway - and continue to do it. They should be in jail.
 
He claimed to have seen part of the fuselage too.
And what heading is your plane on?? You do know the Sheraton is directly behind?

Uh, no, the Sheraton is not directly behind the most plausible flight path, and my drawing has nothing to do with the heading anyway.

You are assuming that the plane literally went straight over his shop. His map clearly shows he saw it coming in at an angle.

Uh, no, I'm demonstrating that if it was anywhere near over his shop, then he couldn't possibly have seen what he said he saw. That was the point.

Pen the hotel in behind and see if you reach the same results.

Sorry, that doesn't make enough sense to respond to. My diagram simple concerns what he could have seen at the angle of view available to him, not the heading of the flight path.

You are contradicting his testimony, his map(s) and the topography. Just letting you know. A little "common sense" needed :)

Duh. Well, I guess I need to spell it out for you: He's contradicting the flight path he drew by what he says he saw, and what he says he saw is consistent with the flight path indicated by every other piece of credible evidence. Here's a hint: The plane was in the air, not rolling on the ground, so all those "signed" flight paths you've got are meaningless. People frequently misjudge those kinds of things when they're just guessing how far away something is, and there's nothing up there to compare against.
 
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Sorry, that doesn't make enough sense to respond to. My diagram simple concerns what he could have seen at the angle of view available to him, not the heading of the flight path.
And you, as I did before, forgot about the marquee in the shop. It limits the sight angle even more.
 
It's a US military bar.

Oh, gotcha. I was just conversing with my roommate earlier about racism in Korea, so that threw me off.

My point is that these CIT morons might seem fine enough to you, but they're perfectly willing to terrorize innocent people. They don't have the excuse of being crazy. They know they're terrorizing people and calling them liars. They know they're doing this and have decided to do it anyway - and continue to do it. They should be in jail.

Craig and Aldo do not seem fine to me at all. I'm very sure they're dishonest (even if for the sake of "proving" a conclusion that they actually believe) and I know Aldo, at least, to be an egomaniac.

In the case that mudlark is Craig some of those complementary comments can be considered retracted. As of now, though, I'm not sure who he is so I'm just treating him as a random CIT supporter. More flies with honey and whatnot... Unlike Childish Empress, I don't feel the need to regard everyone who disagrees with me as the scum of the Earth, unless they prove it to me.
 
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My answers in bold

You don´t "subtract ones who´s testimony is "inconvenient"???
Are you actually serious?

Correct. You put each statement in the context of all the testimony and evidence. That would put us up by hundreds to your 8. Physical evidence trumps testimony. We have the entire aircraft and all the bodies inside the Pentagon.

"Cherry-picked"? There are twice as many more witnesses who CIT have attempted to contact.
They interviewed all they could among the route 27 witnesses.
Remember Mike Walter? :)

What about Walters? He's pissed that Twoofers have misquoted him. He saw the plane and thinks no-planers are nuts. Here he is on a short video saying so.


Links to the "tons of debris" (plane parts I take it?), please.

Book: Firefight: Inside the Battle to Save the Pentagon on 9/11: 150 interviews with participants and eye-witnesses by Patrick Creed



The Pentagon DID contain dead bodies. Those of the Pentagon workers and military. I have seen no documentary evidence to support the DNA retrieval and identification of passengers.
Remember that passenger DNA was not allegedly found until 2 weeks after the event. The FBI took over on 21st September.

Tell it to the folks at AFIP. The full article names the scientists that did the work. You can ask them if the faked the data on all the passengers and crew.


Operation Noble Eagle: Forensic and psychosocial aspects of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology's response to the September 11 Pentagon attack

Military Medicine | September 1, 2002 | Wagner, Glenn N | CopyrightAssociation of Military Surgeons of the United States Feb 2009.

The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) responded to the tragic events of September 11 by providing a multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel to the Dover Air Force Base morgue. This team conducted one of the most comprehensive forensic investigations in U.S. history. AFIP staff also deployed to the Pentagon Family Assistance Center to establish a DNA reference collections operation, and to Somerset County, Pennsylvania, to collect tissue specimens recovered from the crash site for DNA analysis. All DNA analysis took place at the.

Wagner, Military Medicine September 1, 2002 (you have to access it from a university or library)

Experts ID 184 Pentagon Fatalities (Jan 2002)

by Christopher C. Kelly Public Affairs, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology

What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.

A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology played a major role in Operation Nobel Eagle investigations, officials said. AFIP is an executive agency of the Army surgeon general.

Many of the Pentagon casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital; the rest were killed on site. For some victims, only pieces of tissue could be found.

AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators and support personnel worked for more than two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Md., to identify victims of the attack.

"Our staff represented every branch of service," said Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner, AFIP director. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."

AFIP used a well-designed and tested system for identifying the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at Dover Air Force Base, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications.

Forensic dentistry experts then performed dental charting and comparison with existing dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in identification, followed by autopsy inspection. At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause of death, and a forensic anthropologist determined race, sex and stature of victims when necessary.

An epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers documented injuries and personal effects. Finally, mortuary specialists embalmed, dressed and casketed remains.

For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the identification system.

From DNA samples sent to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory, scientists there generated DNA profiles of the victims. Their work also included the victims of United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Somerset County, Pa.

The DNA lab's entire staff of 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, and logistics and administrative personnel worked 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to complete the work.

DNA identifications for Flight 93 victims were sent to the Somerset County Coroner's Office for release. The Department of Defense released identification of Pentagon victims. All but four who worked in the Pentagon were identified. AFIP identified all but one of the passengers of Flight 77.

From the January 2002 Mercury, an Army Medical Department publication.


Again the CVR was "destroyed".

Anything you say.

Links to first responder observations please. Taking into account what I said in my previous post.


Book: Firefight: Inside the Battle to Save the Pentagon on 9/11: 150 interviews with participants and eye-witnesses by Patrick Creed
 
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weird to hear about Confederate flags there btw! I know Korea is a very racist country, but I wasn't aware any groups there associated so strongly with US racism

For your information the Confederate flag is not necessarily a symbol of racism. It is simply a heritage symbol for many. Being from a border state means that I had ancestors on BOTH SIDES, so don't generalize based on ignorance of ALL of the issues. There were multiple issues involved and many of the participants in the Confederacy didn't have a vested interest in slavery.

Equating Korean attitudes toward race as similar to US racism is another indication of a profound ignorance of the issues involved. Korean attitudes stem primarily from a hatred of the Japanese for attrocities committed during the approximately 40 years of their Colonization of Korea and a desire to preserve the "purity" of their race (such as it is). I agree that they have a racist attitude, but it is directed toward all of those who are non-Korean not necessarily anyone of any specific race.

Sorry for the momentary continuation of the derail. Now, back to the lunacy of CIT.
 
For your information the Confederate flag is not necessarily a symbol of racism. It is simply a heritage symbol for many. Being from a border state means that I had ancestors on BOTH SIDES, so don't generalize based on ignorance of ALL of the issues. There were multiple issues involved and many of the participants in the Confederacy didn't have a vested interest in slavery.

Equating Korean attitudes toward race as similar to US racism is another indication of a profound ignorance of the issues involved. Korean attitudes stem primarily from a hatred of the Japanese for attrocities committed during the approximately 40 years of their Colonization of Korea and a desire to preserve the "purity" of their race (such as it is). I agree that they have a racist attitude, but it is directed toward all of those who are non-Korean not necessarily anyone of any specific race.

Sorry for the momentary continuation of the derail. Now, back to the lunacy of CIT.

Are you guys nuts? Did you even read the post? Koreans have NOTHING to do with this. The bar is in Korea. It is owned by a Korean. NO Koreans go there. NONE. It is a bar set up for service men in the United States military. I said this already. It has nothing to do with Koreans.

Besides, I don't care what nostalgic feeling some people get from the Confederate flag. Nobody except white people go there. There is a blues bar across the street where most of the customers are black GIs. I have been there many times. The only coloured person, including Koreans I ever saw in the Grand Old Opry was a Indian MP. Coloured GIs do not go in there. They have a sign behind the bar that says 'The South Will Rise Again'
 
For your information the Confederate flag is not necessarily a symbol of racism. It is simply a heritage symbol for many. Being from a border state means that I had ancestors on BOTH SIDES, so don't generalize based on ignorance of ALL of the issues. There were multiple issues involved and many of the participants in the Confederacy didn't have a vested interest in slavery.

Oh WTF, he specifically told me they were a racist militia. I didn't infer that from the fact that there was a confederate flag there. Sheesh.

Equating Korean attitudes toward race as similar to US racism is another indication of a profound ignorance of the issues involved.

No kidding? That's why I expressed surprise when I thought the two were associated with each other.

Korean attitudes stem primarily from a hatred of the Japanese for attrocities committed during the approximately 40 years of their Colonization of Korea and a desire to preserve the "purity" of their race (such as it is). I agree that they have a racist attitude, but it is directed toward all of those who are non-Korean not necessarily anyone of any specific race.

I wasn't trying to bash all Koreans, I just meant that there is a lot of racism there. And I don't agree there is no race specificity to it, but I'd rather not get into a debate on that right now..

I struck multiple nerves apparently. Not intentional.
 
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I struck multiple nerves apparently. Not intentional.

Not really, just poking fun at the comparison.

A lot of people associate the Confederate flag with slavery.

Yeah, well a lot of people associate it with heritage. My great-unc A.C. McCleary fought with Bedford Forrest (wrote a little book about the experience). We take a lot of pride in the good ole battle flag.

Some see NoC (slavery), and more rational folks see heritage (SoC).

Like Reheat said, I'm from the right side of the State :)
 
What did I ask you a few days ago about the accuracy of the google earth overlays? and if the pin locations were verified via GPS on site? The physical evidence of the flight path trumps all mudlark.

ETA: and its a bit disingenuous to attach my name to a flight path I never drew.

I extended the path from which you are drawing your conclusions.
It is NOT the path based on NTSB heading/course AND physical damage.

It IS the flightpath you drew. It is Warren´s flightpath.

14tx1rc.jpg


The "physical damage" is IMPOSSIBLE from the path you are using.
 

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