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Merged Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)

9/11 is unlikely to have caused esophegeal cancer in someone who was on the other side of the Atlantic when it happened.

You appear to have wandered up some irrelevant alley of your own creation. Hope it's nice - have fun!


Hitchens thought the Iraqi people were being brutalized for decades and that something should have been done about it. He supported the war for that reason alone from what I've gleaned. You make it seem like he became a die hard believer of GW Bush who advocated anything he did.

Where? I never even mentioned The Shrub.

No-one who rants about “islamofacsism” taking over the world can expect to taken too seriously. He naively fell for the heroic "Clash of Civilizations" myth and the romantic and repellant idea that the "civilized" West could bring enlightenment and democracy to the unenlightened via hyperviolence.

I asked you first. Do you know more than Hitchens did about the political goings on in Washington, London and Iraq at the time? You haven't answered yet and I doubt that you can.

Your question is an irrelevant personalization attempt and an abstract appeal to authority (logical fallacy).

I bet the interviewer wishes it was.

Juvenile.


This is a ridiculous contention. Hitch may have been a demi-god (ironically) in skeptic, freethinker and atheist circles. I do not know of anyone who had any say over the execution of the war who was swayed by Christopher's "conversion". I was upset by it, too. But I doubt that anyone in Whitehall St., Pennsylvania Avenue, Alexandria or Langley listened to him.

I'll stand corrected if someone can show me a government (either one) white paper citing his information or rhetoric, but I just don't think that such exists.

He was a tireless producer of Iraq war propaganda. Thank God :) he's not around to do the same for Iran.

At least one soldier died because of his influence.

And since you bring it up (rather than the op), yes I was confused, to say the least about what he had to say re: the Iraq war. But I am certain, knowing the company he kept, the secrets he must have known and his compulsive interest in politics that he knew more about the whole thing than anyone posting on this forum.

That doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with what he had to say. What it does mean though, is that I am more than likely less informed than he was.

What secrets must he have known?


Plenty of Hitchens' admirers in the comments attached to the cartoon seem to like it, regarding it as an affectionate tribute.
 
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No-one who rants about “islamofacsism” taking over the world can expect to taken too seriously.

There is a difference between actually taking over the world and seeking to take over the world.

Al Qaeda and other jihadists want to take over the world, they say so themselves, but they won't, they can't. Hitchens knew that. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking them seriously. Even if they can't recreate their Caliphate, they are seeking to wreak as much havoc as they can, and we shouldn't let them.

But of course, look who I am talking to, you don't even think Al Qaeda exists...:rolleyes:

Thank God :) he's not around to do the same for Iran.
We should very well be taking seriously Ayatollahs and their pursuit of nuclear weapons. If you don't think that is a major problem, then you are a fool. But then again, we knew that too.
 
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I was extremely disappointed with Hitchens in his last years. An obit in the English newspaper the Guardian justly criticises him:
His most noxious forgery was to peddle the cheap lies (Mark Twain’s “conscience-soothing falsities”) of Bush and Blair in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq. ... He set up the equation so that there was no way to oppose the invasion except as a coward or supporter of “Islamo-fascism” (his term, which even the Bush-Blair propagandists hesitated to take up), and comically walked out on his column at the Nation because he felt the editors and readers didn’t agree with him.
Having ordained that the “peacenik, Saddamite” left had ruled itself out of the debate – “it no longer matters what they think” – he substituted his indignant imagination for the actual debate taking place in the anti-war left. “Ha Ha Ha,” he wrote on the fall of Mazar-i-Sharif and Kabul in November 2001. “I get the impression that they [the peaceniks] go to bed saying: ‘What have I done for Saddam Hussein or good old Slobodan or the Taliban today?’”
I also disliked his God Is Not Great which seemed to cover ground already explored by Dawkins, and unlike Dawkins' books the hardback edition of GING contained quite a few silly and unnecessary errors. I was moved to write to him pointing some of them out, and he was kind and gracious enough to thank me for my "careful observations".
 
I was extremely disappointed with Hitchens in his last years. An obit in the English newspaper the Guardian justly criticises him: I also disliked his God Is Not Great which seemed to cover ground already explored by Dawkins, and unlike Dawkins' books the hardback edition of GING contained quite a few silly and unnecessary errors. I was moved to write to him pointing some of them out, and he was kind and gracious enough to thank me for my "careful observations".

Here, for those curious to read the rest of it.
Perfectly appropriate. Hitchens did not want to be a hero. He didn't want to be venerated.

I'm skeptical of both his detractors and his proponents (including me). Still, I'm quite confident that few have contributed more to the dialectic and the advancement of social and moral progress. Few advocated more for free thought. Few were more effective fighting against superstition and the slavery to the liars and cheats of religion.
 
Here [Guardian article on Hitchens], for those curious to read the rest of it.

I'm not quite sure what to make of an article like that. Mostly the author seems to be critical of Hitchens for his pro-Iraqi war 2 stands.

Did Hitchens parrot the misrepresentations of the Bush administration after they had been shown to be misrepresentations? I'm not sure, but it is my view that regardless of your views on the advisability of the war, an informed intellectually honest view must include the fact that the Bush administration (driven by Cheney) grossly misrepresented the facts about the nature of the intelligence on Hussein's WMD programs and that the principle justification put forth before the start of the war for the war was false.

But if Hitchens did acknowledge contrary facts to his support for the war I'd be inclined to cut him some slack. I think it is likely that the war was more detrimental than beneficial but if Hitchens held a contrary view that did not include routine partisan rationalizations of the facts contrary to his view then I might not agree with his overall argument but I wouldn't conclude that he was being intellectually dishonest.
 
Davefoc

Yes of course, but Hitchens accused opponents of the Iraq war of things much worse than mere intellectual dishonesty. That's what irks me.
 
While Hitchens gets some flack from former friends due to his support of the Iraq war... I wonder what some of the above posters think regarding some of Hitchens' earlier essays.

How about this one regarding the Palestinians:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wELzivMr_-cC&pg=PA73&lpg=PP1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaming_the_Victims#.22Broadcasts.22_.28Christopher_Hitchens.29


Also, here is Hitchens' obituary for Edward Said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/obit/2003/09/edward_said.html
 
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While Hitchens gets some flack from former friends due to his support of the Iraq war... I wonder what some of the above posters think regarding some of Hitchens' earlier essays.

How about this one regarding the Palestinians:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wELzivMr_-cC&pg=PA73&lpg=PP1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaming_the_Victims#.22Broadcasts.22_.28Christopher_Hitchens.29
Also, here is Hitchens obituary for Edward Said:
I made clear that it was Hitchens' later works that disappointed me. Many others may have experienced the same disappointment. I don't condemn everything he wrote. His demolition of Mother Theresa was masterly. His God Is Not Great was shallow and sensationalist. His late self appointment as propagandist for Bush and Blair was positively weird. What could he have been thinking of?
 
I really started to pay attention and watch his videos online a little over a year ago and agree with 90% of what he had to say. I'm not familiar with his stance on Mother Teresa or Iraq that well. But his main goal was wanting Saddam ousted right? Then I started to read his book of quotes on various subjects and so far agree with 90% of those too.

He was tenacious and to the point, blunt- that was what I loved. Dawkins comes close but still...who can have that same effect? There is a huge void now.
 
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I really started to pay attention and watch his videos online a little over a year ago and agree with 90% of what he had to say. I'm not familiar with his stance on Mother Teresa or Iraq that well. But his main goal was wanting Saddam ousted right? Then I started to read his book of quotes on various subjects and so far agree with 90% of those too.

He was tenacious and to the point, blunt- that was what I loved. Dawkins comes close but still...who can have that same effect? There is a huge void now.

I think it would be worth finding out what Hitchens thought on Iraq.

It was a little unusual to say the least.

In 1991, he was vehemently opposed to the war to liberate Kuwait from Saddam Hussein's Iraq. There are still videos floating around of him saying that the US and UK forces perpetrated war crimes and that the US had, in any event, given Saddam Hussein the "green light" to invade as a reward for fighting Iran.

Then he was invited to visit the Kurds in the north of Iraq after it came under US-protected no-fly zones. From then on he did write pieces about "the struggle of the Kurds" and started hanging out with Iraqi emigres who were lobbying to see Saddam Hussein overthrown. One of these, Ahmed Chalabi, became quite notorious and was a good example of how his judgment could be a bit off. Another influence was Kenan Makiya's Republic of Fear which showed the type of country that Saddam Hussein presided over. In that sense, I agree with others who say that Hitchens had a principled opposition to Saddam Hussein and that foremost was his belief that Hussein was simply evil and worth getting rid of.

The problem for me is that after dabbling with skepticism over Bush and his "Axis of Evil" and after publicly stating that he would need reassurances on a "million fronts" (IIRC) he suddenly lost all doubts whatsoever and began to propagandize hard for war. Anyone who disagreed with him, even mildly, were savaged and denigrated and he started to argue that there were WMDs in Iraq and soon everyone would know it and then they would see he was right. Of course, such weapons weren't found and he seems to have allowed himself to be duped, once again over "yellowcake from Niger" which was based on forged documents. Again, the same pattern of abuse of any naysayer or advocate of caution while blustering away about how many Ba'athists and jihadists were going to be killed and what happy days these were. In short, I think he became a little bit deranged in the run-up to the war to the point were he could no longer climb down or admit he was wrong. So, he doubled down on it, urging more and more destruction and "endless war" - he literally did this! When he turned up to some atheist convention he said he wanted to piss the audience off and then started urging the bombing of Iran and killing of more jihadists. By this point, I think Hitchens was just trying to be consistent as he could no longer start saying, "well, hold on now. Let's slow down and think about this rationally" the logic of his Iraq War stance ruled this out. So, the guy who accused Bill Clinton of war crimes, for bombing al-Shifa in Khartoum, was demanding that the US start bombing the **** out of just about anything and everything.
 
I was extremely disappointed with Hitchens in his last years. An obit in the English newspaper the Guardian justly criticises him: I also disliked his God Is Not Great which seemed to cover ground already explored by Dawkins, and unlike Dawkins' books the hardback edition of GING contained quite a few silly and unnecessary errors. I was moved to write to him pointing some of them out, and he was kind and gracious enough to thank me for my "careful observations".

How did you write to him? I tried to find an address over the last year or so but I didn't end up finding one. Should've looked harder. :(
 
The problem for me is that after dabbling with skepticism over Bush and his "Axis of Evil" and after publicly stating that he would need reassurances on a "million fronts" (IIRC) he suddenly lost all doubts whatsoever and began to propagandize hard for war. Anyone who disagreed with him, even mildly, were savaged and denigrated and he started to argue that there were WMDs in Iraq and soon everyone would know it and then they would see he was right. Of course, such weapons weren't found and he seems to have allowed himself to be duped, once again over "yellowcake from Niger" which was based on forged documents. Again, the same pattern of abuse of any naysayer or advocate of caution while blustering away about how many Ba'athists and jihadists were going to be killed and what happy days these were. In short, I think he became a little bit deranged in the run-up to the war to the point were he could no longer climb down or admit he was wrong. So, he doubled down on it, urging more and more destruction and "endless war" - he literally did this! When he turned up to some atheist convention he said he wanted to piss the audience off and then started urging the bombing of Iran and killing of more jihadists. By this point, I think Hitchens was just trying to be consistent as he could no longer start saying, "well, hold on now. Let's slow down and think about this rationally" the logic of his Iraq War stance ruled this out. So, the guy who accused Bill Clinton of war crimes, for bombing al-Shifa in Khartoum, was demanding that the US start bombing the **** out of just about anything and everything.
Thanks angry, could you provide some sources?
 
Thanks angry, could you provide some sources?

Hi Randfan, the Mirror seems to have removed that Hitchens piece on his skepticism on the Axis of Evil.

But some helpful soul has archived it here:

WHERE IS THIS EVIL AXIS BUSH SPEAKS OF? CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS On the peril of
America's muddled, ignorant hawks

TWO four-letter words - "axis" and "evil" - have rightly become the symbolic
phrase for everything that has become risky and dubious and opportunistic
about the new Bush foreign policy.

They represent an attempt to capitalise on the honest and necessary
indignation aroused by the atrocity and aggression of September 11. They
fail, both as terms and as descriptions, to live up to the high moral tone
that was properly set by those events.

http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galaxy.csuchico.edu/msg66683.html

On yellowcake in Niger:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2006/07/case_closed.html

This is just one article. There are several. Later on he wrote articles on the "persecution" of Scooter Libby and how the whole sorry thing should just be forgotten about.

On bombing of Iran, I can't find the video right now but it is one from an event that PZ Myers attended and wrote a blogpost on. Hitchens began by saying that anyone there who voting for Hilary Clinton or Barack Obama would be voting for a "faith-based frump" or a "fool" until he finally ended up supporting Obama anyway.

As for his disagreements with others on the Left, he walked out of the Nation for basically saying they were an echo-chamber of those who could see no difference between Osama bin Laden and John Ashcroft. Although others have pointed out that moving from a modest-paying left-wing publication to a lavishly-paid literary journal like the Atlantic is no kind of principled walk-out.
 
Hi Randfan, the Mirror seems to have removed that Hitchens piece on his skepticism on the Axis of Evil.

But some helpful soul has archived it here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galaxy.csuchico.edu/msg66683.html

On yellowcake in Niger:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2006/07/case_closed.html

This is just one article. There are several. Later on he wrote articles on the "persecution" of Scooter Libby and how the whole sorry thing should just be forgotten about.

On bombing of Iran, I can't find the video right now but it is one from an event that PZ Myers attended and wrote a blogpost on. Hitchens began by saying that anyone there who voting for Hilary Clinton or Barack Obama would be voting for a "faith-based frump" or a "fool" until he finally ended up supporting Obama anyway.

As for his disagreements with others on the Left, he walked out of the Nation for basically saying they were an echo-chamber of those who could see no difference between Osama bin Laden and John Ashcroft. Although others have pointed out that moving from a modest-paying left-wing publication to a lavishly-paid literary journal like the Atlantic is no kind of principled walk-out.
Thanks. I'll look at it. Doesn't seem particularly damning. FWIW I find your final statement rather trite given Hitchens' depth of contributions including Vanity fair. It seems a bit of connect the dots 9/11 truther CT. But, i'll keep an open mind just as I do for anti-vax and creationism. I don't mean to be dismissive. I really do keep an open mind for both.
 
Thanks. I'll look at it. Doesn't seem particularly damning. FWIW I find your final statement rather trite given Hitchens' depth of contributions including Vanity fair. It seems a bit of connect the dots 9/11 truther CT. But, i'll keep an open mind just as I do for anti-vax and creationism. I don't mean to be dismissive. I really do keep an open mind for both.

I said nothing even remotely Truther-like.
 
I said nothing even remotely Truther-like.
Sorry, I mean that you pull out events that seem to only fit a rather narrow narrative. I'm always skeptical of that. Again, I honestly don't mean that as a slight. It's just that given that so many on the left have so much respect for him and given his depth of writing and contributions it seems a bit of selective stringing the dots together and that does strike me as the kind of stuff the CT folks do.

Sorry if that is offensive. JMO honest observation. Hey, I could be wrong and your points are the only salient ones.
 
So, he doubled down on it, urging more and more destruction and "endless war" - he literally did this! When he turned up to some atheist convention he said he wanted to piss the audience off and then started urging the bombing of Iran and killing of more jihadists. By this point, I think Hitchens was just trying to be consistent as he could no longer start saying, "well, hold on now. Let's slow down and think about this rationally" the logic of his Iraq War stance ruled this out. So, the guy who accused Bill Clinton of war crimes, for bombing al-Shifa in Khartoum, was demanding that the US start bombing the **** out of just about anything and everything

That's a shame and very strange too.
 
Sorry, I mean that you pull out events that seem to only fit a rather narrow narrative. I'm always skeptical of that. Again, I honestly don't mean that as a slight. It's just that given that so many on the left have so much respect for him and given his depth of writing and contributions it seems a bit of selective stringing the dots together and that does strike me as the kind of stuff the CT folks do.

Sorry if that is offensive. JMO honest observation. Hey, I could be wrong and your points are the only salient ones.

What CTs do is rummage around for quotes that are distorted by the context they place them in and cobble together various facts and falsehoods into the narrative that you talked about. Then fail to see the big picture and instead create one of their own.

With Hitchens, I can promise you, I am giving you the big picture here. I have given you only a few links because you requested I show you some links. If you want more they are very easy to find. There are videos and Slate articles galore that you can view and read.

But just so that we are clear, what "narrative" do you think I am giving you that you disagree with or are skeptical of?
 

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