Christmas as a secular holiday.

[Some Friggin Guy]

"Borrowed" implies permission and/or citing the original source.

For christianity, I stand by the term "stolen".

 

[Iacchus]

"Borrowed" implies permission and/or citing the original source.

For christianity, I stand by the term "stolen".

And yet what if it was necessary for certain pieces of the puzzle to come together before you can get the "true picture."

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

As a rational human being, I would think that pieces from a different puzzle would be clearly marked as such and not simply passed off as something new. The law calls what christianity does in this regard "plagerism".

 

[Hal 2001]

Jul not christmas

Actually it's easier to think of christmas as a secular day in Denmark because its actually is called jul. As I recal this has nothing to do with Christianity and is a remeniscence of the ancient pagan winther solstice tradition.

I celebrate the begining of a new cycle where the days become longer again, even if it's a couple of days to late.

I do not go to church, and when we sing while dancing around the tree (I don't how many countries have this tradition by the way), I only thing the songs with absolutely no religious content.

I do howeever not know what I'm celebrating on new years eve? Gregorius new calendar or what!? Shouldn't that be Christ birth since our time counting in theory should begin with his assumed birth?

I'm wondering


Mss Hal

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

Re: Jul not christmas

Actually it's easier to think of christmas as a secular day in Denmark because its actually is called jul. As I recal this has nothing to do with Christianity and is a remeniscence of the ancient pagan winther solstice tradition.

I celebrate the begining of a new cycle where the days become longer again, even if it's a couple of days to late.

I do not go to church, and when we sing while dancing around the tree (I don't how many countries have this tradition by the way), I only thing the songs with absolutely no religious content.

I do howeever not know what I'm celebrating on new years eve? Gregorius new calendar or what!? Shouldn't that be Christ birth since our time counting in theory should begin with his assumed birth?

I'm wondering


Mss Hal

We don't have the tree tradition in my neighbourhood (at least singing around it) but it sounds nice and familial.

As for what we celebrate on New Year's Eve: I can, of course, only answer for myself. I celebrate the wonderous brew first distilled many years ago by the Jack of Daniels.

 

[Iacchus]

As a rational human being, I would think that pieces from a different puzzle would be clearly marked as such and not simply passed off as something new. The law calls what christianity does in this regard "plagerism".

This seems like a dumb argument to get into (obviously I'm not rational because I don't agree with you), but "the puzzle" is the human experience as a whole.

Yes, and when two pieces of the puzzle comes together it forms a "new picture." In which case it becomes the hybrid -- and hence "offspring" -- of the two pieces which came together.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

I never said you were irrational, Iacchus.

First, I misunderstood what you were saying. My apologies for that.

The issue I have, though, is that viewing christmas as anything but a secular holiday requires acceptance of a religion that has plagerized a good deal from other religions.

Now we can get into the semantic argument of "stolen" vs. "borrowe", but I don't think either of us wants to. What we want to do is get to the heart of the matter, which seems to be this: is there any evidence that christmas has anything to do with christianity.

Since we have to use the bible to justify the existence of even a historical Jesus, since it is the only piece of "evidence" out there, we can look to it for the answer. The problem is, the answer is not in the bible.

The answer is that this date was chosen because of other myths which have heroes, similar to Jesus, born on or around this date. Early christians incorporated this into their faith so they could more easily bring in new members. Nothing says "We're just like you, only better" than to have a party on the same day as the people you are trying to prove your superiority to.

 

[Keneke]

Let me come out of left field and say that the origins of Santa Claus were religious in and of themselves. He was originally Saint Nicholas, just some guy from Turkey who lived in the fourth century and was later sainted by the Roman Catholic Church. The current story of Saint Nick, much like Christianity itself, is mere caucasian corruption. We really are heartless bastards.

Also, the pagan leftovers of yule celebration (the tree, the holly, etc) are still religious in their own way, not secular at all. As far as I can tell, the only secularness of the holiday is a non-religious person's desire to celebrate it in spite of his or her non-belief. That and "Let It Snow", which I wish was sung at times other than Christmas.