Christians and Reality

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Ipecac said:


Man, what tortured logic. We have found that much of the geology of Earth is consistent with what we find on other planets and moons. This supports the geological theories we've developed and the universality of physics.

Radrook, somehow, has twisted this so it supports his bizarre idea that the geological condition of the earth is our fault. Talk about a victims mind-set.

BTW, thanks, Beancounter, for following up on this.

Ipecac


I never spoke against the universality of physics.
That is a straw man argument.
Neither does the observation of pandemonium somewhere provide proof that the creator--that is if you believe in one--created the earth in the same susceptible to unforseeable disasters way.

As for your characterizing me as a victim and of having a mindset, why is it that you Evies cannot hold a discussion without trying to degenerate it into ad homenim a name-calling contests?

Let me assure you that I wll not respond in kind.
I will merely use another acceptable avenue to deal with namecalling and ads hominems. An administrator approved method that will not result in my getting banned. : )

Sorry!
 
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Radrook said:
I never spoke against the universality of physics.
That is a straw man argument.
Neither does the observation of pandemonium somewhere provide proof that the creator--that is if you believe in one--created the earth in the same susceptible to unforseeable disasters way.

As for your characterizing me as a victim and of having a mindset, why is it that you Evies cannot hold a discussion without trying to degenerate it into ad homenim a name-calling contests?

Let me assure you that I wll not respond in kind.
I will merely use another acceptable avenue to deal with namecalling and ads hominems. An administrator approved method that will not result in my getting banned. : )

Sorry!

So you agree that the "laws" of physics are universal. That means that what happens on other planets/moons is likely to happen here given similar conditions, right? So if we have volcanos here on earth and on Io, then the conditions which cause the volcanos are likely similar or the same, correct?

Your position that we have volcanos on Earth because God isn't taking care of our planet is inconsistent with the above. It adds an unnecessary level of complication.

No ad hominiems from me. You're not understanding my comment.

Christians have a victim's mindset. Christians believe that people are inherently sinful; we're born that way. If we're miserable, it's our own fault. If we were good, then we wouldn't have disease, famine, disaster. That's a victim's mindset. Your own position that we have natural disasters because of our own mistakes is definitely consistent with such a mindset. Or am I mischaracterizing your position?

What the heck is an "Evie"? Evolutionist?
 
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Ipecac said:


So you agree that the "laws" of physics are universal.


I cannot make such a statement because it would constitute a hasty conclusion based on insufficient evidence. The visible universe is considered only a small part of the whoe. THe vast portion of it that is beyond our sensors osis considered to be much larger. Based on this, reaching conclusions about the larger section based on the smaller is not justified. We can say perhaps, but beyond that nothing certain. But limiting ourselves to the solar system is sufficient for the purpose at hand.



That means that what happens on other planets/moons is likely to happen here given similar conditions, right?

Yes!
Given similar conditions we can expect the same.
But the existence of similar conditions on other planets does not make it a given that this planert has always shared those similar conditions. Neither am I denying that the conditions are the imdediate causes of the geologic or atmospheric phemnenon.




So if we have volcanos here on earth and on Io, then the conditions which cause the volcanos are likely similar or the same, correct?

Certainly the imdeite causes are the same. That was never an issue.

Your position that we have volcanos on Earth because God isn't taking care of our planet is inconsistent with the above. It adds an unnecessary level of complication.


I did not mean to say that volcanoes definitely did not exist on earth when God was totally in charge. What I meant to say was that disasters such as they are now responsible for would not be allowed to cause harm to mankind.

No ad hominiems from me. You're not understanding my comment.

Christians have a victim's mindset. Christians believe that people are inherently sinful; we're born that way. If we're miserable, it's our own fault. If we were good, then we wouldn't have disease, famine, disaster. That's a victim's mindset. Your own position that we have natural disasters because of our own mistakes is definitely consistent with such a mindset. Or am I mischaracterizing your position?

What the heck is an "Evie"? Evolutionist?

An evolutionist.
I do not have a victim mindset.
I only develop it when multiple threads are set up for the sole purpose mocking my religious beliefs. Then I begin to suspect collusion in hopes of provocation leading to banning.
 
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Radrook said:

I did not mean to say that volcanoes definitely did not exist on earth when God was totally in charge. What I meant to say was that disasters such as they are now responsible for would not be allowed to cause harm to mankind.

An evolutionist.
I do not have a victim mindset.
I only develop it when multiple threads are set up for the sole purpose mocking my religious beliefs. Then I begin to suspect collusion in hopes of provocation leading to banning.

Ah, okay. I think we're on the same page now. I don't think there's any more point to discussing the first part as you have the ultimate out. Further discussion would go like this:

- I would remind you that in all of recorded history, humans have been harmed by natural disasters.

- You would counter that that's true, all the way back to Adam and Eve and had they not acted as they did, they would have continued to live in paradise and people today wouldn't be bothered by volcanos.

Since we don't share the same belief in the existence of Adam and Eve, there's nothing else to say on this point.


With regards to the victim's mindset.

Do you believe that humans were created perfect and lived in a paradise?

Do you believe that humans rejected that paradise and thus lost their perfection, becoming subject to disease and disaster, and now live in an imperfect world?

Do you believe this was a free choice by humans?

Do you then believe it's humanity's fault that we no longer live in paradise and are subject to disease, disaster, etc.?
 
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Ipecac

I've been thinking this for a while now, but I'm pretty sure Radrock is just winding people up.

The irony in statements like this for example:

Radrook said:

As for your characterizing me as a victim and of having a mindset, why is it that you Evies cannot hold a discussion without trying to degenerate it into ad homenim a name-calling contests?

and the illogic of this:
Radrook said:

I do not have a victim mindset.
I only develop it when multiple threads are set up for the sole purpose mocking my religious beliefs. Then I begin to suspect collusion in hopes of provocation leading to banning.

He dosen't have a mindset, but he develops it when...

Threads he has been most active in seem to be:

Christians and Reality
Gullible People
Christian reaction to extraterrestrial intelligent life

All were created by him. I can't see any threads "set up for the sole purpose of mocking my religious beliefs". In fact for someone so easily offended it's surprising he makes a thread called 'Gullible people' and uses remarks like these:
Of course all these are nervously laughed away as mere coincidences and the admiring nonscientists of course mindlessly chuckle along. Thus the gullibility is perpetuated and the godless idea which requires the ignoring of all strong counter-evidence remains firmly imbedded in the minds of the indoctrinated gullible.
He also manages to completely avoid answering questions that would allow the debate to proceed in a rational fashion.

I call troll.
 
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Ipecac said:



With regards to the victim's mindset.

Do you believe that humans were created perfect and lived in a paradise?

Do you believe that humans rejected that paradise and thus lost their perfection, becoming subject to disease and disaster, and now live in an imperfect world?

Do you believe this was a free choice by humans?

Do you then believe it's humanity's fault that we no longer live in paradise and are subject to disease, disaster, etc.?


Well, if believing in all those things is your criteria for classifying people as having a victim mindset then I guess I qualify.


Small clarifications:

About fault:
Earth's present condition is not my fault.


What is my fault are my own voluntary sins?
However, even there I have to be careful because what I consider voluntary might look very involuntary to God who can evaluate things much better than I can.

About paradise:
It was not the paradise that Adam and Eve rejected per se.
What they rejected was God's guidance or authority.
Their actions resulted in their disqualification to live in that paradise. So their children were born outside that paradise.

About Free choice:
Adam and Eve could have chosen differently.
 
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Radrook said:
Well, if believing in all those things is your criteria for classifying people as having a victim mindset then I guess I qualify.


Small clarifications:

About fault:
Earth's present condition is not my fault.


What is my fault are my own voluntary sins?
However, even there I have to be careful because what I consider voluntary might look very involuntary to God who can evaluate things much better than I can.

About paradise:
It was not the paradise that Adam and Eve rejected per se.
What they rejected was God's guidance or authority.
Their actions resulted in their disqualification to live in that paradise. So their children were born outside that paradise.

About Free choice:
Adam and Eve could have chosen differently.


Most Christians accept the concept of original sin which places the blame for all suffering directly on humanity. Blame is not given to god, the guy who supposedly designed the whole thing and set the rules. The guy who could, with a mere thought, erase all suffering.

A couple more questions:

Did god create you and every facet of your being?

Is god omniscient, including knowing the future and what your choices will be throughout your life?

Are your choices dictated by who you are?

If God created you exactly as you are and knew, from before he even created you, what choices you would make, could he have made you differently so you would make different choices?
 
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Radrook said:
It was not the paradise that Adam and Eve rejected per se.
What they rejected was God's guidance or authority.
Their actions resulted in their disqualification to live in that paradise. So their children were born outside that paradise.

Hi Radrook.

Kinda mirroring what ipecac is asking, do you personally think God knew how Adam and Eve would react?

Did he set them up to fail?
 
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Ipecac said:
The guy who could, with a mere thought, erase all suffering.

If it were that simple he would have already done it.


A couple more questions:

Did god create you and every facet of your being?.

No, we presently are not in God's image.
So he did not create what we are presentlly

Is god omniscient, including knowing the future and what your choices will be throughout your life?

Not if by omniscient you mean knowing the unknowable.
Free willed creatures are very often unpredictable.
God created Adam and Eve flawless.
When God viewed Adam and Eve there was nothing in their nature that indicated that they would sin. Nothing upon which to base a oprediction. That why God after creating them proclaimed his creation as good.

Are your choices dictated by who you are?

You have a choice very often to decide who you are.
At other times people don't have that choice.

If God created you exactly as you are and knew, from before he even created you, what choices you would make, could he have made you differently so you would make different choices?

The only way he could have created Adam and Eve so that they would never fail would be to make them robotic.
 
Your all-powerful God knows how to create this magical thing called free-will, but doesn't know how it works or how the people blessed with it will act?

How can that be?

These people that were 'flawless' at first, suddenly became 'flawed'. Where did these flaws come from if they did not exist as part of them originally? Did god not know they would become flawed?

We can both agree that people have different personalities. They tend to act in ways which mirror their personalities. Did god not know what Adam and Eve's personality would be like at all?

It just doesn't seem to add up to me that this omnipotent, omniscient God would be so clueless as to how his creations would act.

I also can't for the life of me understand how a god could create this unpredictable 'free-will' anyway.
 
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Radrook said:


If it were that simple he would have already done it.



So, there are some things that God cannot, or will not do?

Feel free to share your understanding of either of those choices..

Your ' simple ' qualifier, seems to imply a level of difficulty that God cannot overcome.. ( ? )
 
Humphreys said:
Your all-powerful God knows how to create this magical thing called free-will, but doesn't know how it works or how the people blessed with it will act?

How can that be?

These people that were 'flawless' at first, suddenly became 'flawed'. Where did these flaws come from if they did not exist as part of them originally? Did god not know they would become flawed?

The flaws came from their choosing to misuse the bat of free will and braining themselves with it.

When he created free-willed creatures as opposed to robots he knew that the possibility of the misuse of free will was there. But the choice in misusing the faculty of free will would be the creature's not God's. Blaming God for a creature misusing free will is like blaming a merchant for selling me a bat that I just happened to missuse by murdering someone with it. Obviously the merchant sold it so that you could play baseball, Your choice of braining someone with it is your choice--not his.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

We can both agree that people have different personalities. They tend to act in ways which mirror their personalities. Did god not know Adam and Eve's personality would be like at all?

He knew that they were flawless and had no tendencies toward evil. So there was nothing to indicate that they would misuse their freedom of choice. If they sinned it wasn't based on a weakness or a tendency to sin. If they sinned it was a calculated decision bereft of such extenuating factors. In short, a methodical Spock-like weighing of pros and cons and a deliberate reaching of a decision that they considered logical or else advantageous. In that way they permitted their own thoughts to entice them to sin.
But the thoughts were chosen thoughts. Not thoughts that intruded in the way they do upon imperfect creatures.

The power that entertainment of wrong thoughts can have is described in the following way:

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

In short, they willingly delved on the prospects of going it on their own until such a prospect of disobedience became overwhelmingly enticing and led them to sin.


It just doesn't seem to add up to me that this omnipotent, omniscient God would be so clueless as to how his creations would act.

Omnipotence does not mean being able to do the impossible. God cannot square a circle. God cannot a creature that cannot choose to sin without also making him robotic. So what we have is an almighty being caught in a dilemma. So he picked the alternative that he felt was best.

I also can't for the life of me understand how a god could create free-will anyway, or what it is even.

Free will is the ability to choose among a variety of possibilities. Ants don't have that privilege because they were created to follow instinct. An ant must behave like an ant. Man has the choice of behaving in a multitude of ways. Take away that ability and man becomes ant-like and his worship of God becomes meaningless.

In the comedic film "Bruce Almighty" expresses the difficulties of dealing with free willed creatures in a very illuminating way.
 
Radrook said:



In the comedic film "Bruce Almighty" expresses the difficulties of dealing with free willed creatures in a very illuminating way.

Good example.. It pretty much summed up the difficulties of dealing with any God concept at all. ( handling prayer & etc .. )
 
So, Radrook, god created "flawless" beings. But they screwed up. Hmm. They don't sound very flawless to me.

If god's intention was to create perfect beings, then he failed. The failure is his fault. He is to blame.

Your analogy of someone buying a bat and then using it to murder someone is way off.

Here's a better analogy. I am a bat manufacturer. I claim that this bat is flawless, unbreakable. Then, the first time it's used in a game, it shatters. Whose fault is it? The fault is mine, the manufacturer. Had I known that the bat would shatter, I am even more culpable.

You have described a god who is not all-knowing (he apparently didn't know his creation was going to reject him) or all-powerful (he is incapable of producing perfect people with free will). This puts you well outside the majority of Christian beliefs.
 
Radrook
When he created free-willed creatures as opposed to robots he knew that the possibility of the misuse of free will was there. But the choice in misusing the faculty of free will would be the creature's not God's. Blaming God for a creature misusing free will is like blaming a merchant for selling me a bat that I just happened to missuse by murdering someone with it. Obviously the merchant sold it so that you could play baseball, Your choice of braining someone with it is your choice--not his.
But to clarify the analogy, the merchant sold the bat a loaded revolver with no safety to a 3 year old.

How is freewill possible without knowledge? Wouldn’t that be nothing more than instinct?

He knew that they were flawless and had no tendencies toward evil. So there was nothing to indicate that they would misuse their freedom of choice. If they sinned it wasn't based on a weakness or a tendency to sin. If they sinned it was a calculated decision bereft of such extenuating factors. In short, a methodical Spock-like weighing of pros and cons and a deliberate reaching of a decision that they considered logical or else advantageous. In that way they permitted their own thoughts to entice them to sin.
How so? Adam and Eve sinned by eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. How were they to ‘weigh the pros and cons and reach a deliberate decision’ without the knowledge that the act was evil?


James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

2 Thessalonians 2:10 – 13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Don’t forget the predestination bit thrown in for good measure as well. Color and underscore mine

Ossai
 
Ipecac said:
So, Radrook, god created "flawless" beings. But they screwed up. Hmm. They don't sound very flawless to me.

If god's intention was to create perfect beings, then he failed. The failure is his fault. He is to blame.

Your analogy of someone buying a bat and then using it to murder someone is way off.

Here's a better analogy. I am a bat manufacturer. I claim that this bat is flawless, unbreakable. Then, the first time it's used in a game, it shatters. Whose fault is it? The fault is mine, the manufacturer. Had I known that the bat would shatter, I am even more culpable.

You have described a god who is not all-knowing (he apparently didn't know his creation was going to reject him) or all-powerful (he is incapable of producing perfect people with free will). This puts you well outside the majority of Christian beliefs.


Again, you are free to believe that God can square a circle or that he can do the logically impossible if you wish. But make that claim to any philosopher or even theologian worth his salt and he will disagree.


As to perfection, perfection is based on criteria.
God's criteria for perfection was ability to choose.
Your criterion for perfection is inability to choose.
Fortunately, God thought otherwise.
Otherwise we would be going around doing the zombie shuffle.


Also, the analogy of the bat is wrong.
God never guaranteed that human perfection meant inability to make wrong choices.

God knew that granting freedom of choice entailed dangers.
So your description of his not having a clue about the possibilities is YOUR idea not mine.

As to my explanation supposedly not being in accord with the herd's, that is perfectly OK. My separation from that herd is voluntary and based on sound biblical principles. So from where i stand I have absolutely nothing to be worried about.
However, that is far more than I can say for the herd.
 
Dare I even point out the fact that the Adam and Eve parable has tracable roots to oral legends and traditions in non-Hebrew culture existant thousands of years before the Bible? Or that large tracts of said Bible are revisions, edits, and outright theft of ideas from various non-Biblical cultures? Dare I point out that the creation tale most likely evolved from similar creation tales of older cultures? Much like the entire Jesus tale is constructed of the same elements, situations, and concepts of other mythologies worldwide?

I recently read a dissertation about how the entire Savior storyline existed dozens of times over before the Gospel writers adopted it and wrapped it around the factual tales of a heretical Jew who was preaching unpopular notions started by an outcast Jewish priest of the times... Seems that Jesus was little more than a Jew-Hippy who was spouting unpopular ideas that went against the established church, and a few decades (centuries?) later, some 'Christians' added a lot of good-old-fashioned myth to this guy borrowed heavily from a very common mythological Savior thread to add legitimacy to their infantile religion. INterestingly enough, someone jumped into the discussion to point out that Satan threw out all those mythological Savior stories centuries in advance to try to corrupt the One True Savior Story...

Anyway, having read far more than merely the Judeo-Christian Bible, it always strikes me as hilarious when people quote from Genesis or refer to the events of the Savior's life as if it were fact, and not merely retelling of old fairy-tales to bring Pagan believers into the fold.

There's a fine book out there called "When God was a Woman" which, I believe, was written by someone calling themselves Merlin Stone - Not exactly an unbiased book, by any means, but the book IS full of references with which one is free to do one's own research, and with which one can see how the Bible and the entire Judeo-Christian faith REALLY evolved into the world. One man's religion is just another man's myth, ultimately.

Radook, you seem to be heavily into the notions of logic, reason, and evidence.. How, exactly, DO you reconcile the fact that almost every truly unique significant factor in the Bible can be clearly traced to sources in pre-Judeo-Christian mythologies? How DO you reconcile the many places in which there is heavy evidence that flawed human authors not only wrote the Bible, but also made significant changes later in the Book's history, or the fact that the Church had to weed out dozens and dozens of texts, many of which promote contradictory views, before settling on what would now be the Bible?

What if, next year, the Pope and a group of Roman Scholars sat down and tossed out half the Old Testament and replaced it with some of the formerly rejected Books, such as the book detailing Adam's first wife, Lilith, or another book that claimed to detail Moses' life AFTER entering the Promised Land? These books are said to have existed - and may yet exist - but were judiciously removed at some point in the Church's long and glorious history. Would your adamant clinging to the Genesis story change if a 2005 Bible were released claiming that God made the Universe from the remains of the older Universe, and that Man appeared spontaneously, surprising the Creator? (No, I don't think any book existed making this claim - it's just another Creation story that was circulating about the time that the Adam and Eve story is believed to have first been recorded).

One immense problem I have with Bible literalists is they often either fail to realize, or choose to ignore, the fact that their precious Scripture has, in fact, changed many times over the course of history. My mother-in-law, in fact, clings to her NIV Bible like it was the original text, and got right offended when I explained to her how the idea of the Trinity was ADDED in the 4th century A.D. (about the same time they decided women had souls). And if you think THAT upset her, you should have SEEN when I whipped out my Apocrypha! "More books? Nonsense - the only Bible is this one RIGHT HERE."

Now, I'm no Bible scholar. Just a person who reads... a LOT... and noticed a LONG time ago how much of this sacred Text borrows from the stories and legends of other lands, other times. It's no different from any other collection of popular myth, with the exception that a large body of people fanatically try HARD to believe EVERY WORD of it.

Well, every word that's convenient to believe. No need to worry about those passages advocating slavery, incest, or the possession of multiple wives and concubines.
 
zaayrdragon said:

Dare I even point out the fact that the Adam and Eve parable has tracable roots to oral legends and traditions in non-Hebrew culture existant thousands of years before the Bible? Or that large tracts of said Bible are revisions, edits, and outright theft of ideas from various non-Biblical cultures? Dare I point out that the creation tale most likely evolved from similar creation tales of older cultures? Much like the entire Jesus tale is constructed of the same elements, situations, and concepts of other mythologies worldwide?
What about the English language? What's so authentic about it? When you look at it, it's just a bastardization of all the other languages isn't it? And yet how could you deny it to be one of the most useful languages in the world today?
 
Iacchus said:
What about the English language? What's so authentic about it? When you look at it, it's just a bastardization of all the other languages isn't it? And yet how could you deny it to be one of the most useful languages in the world today?

Completely irrelevant. No-one is claiming the English language is "authentic" and, after all, all a language is is a tool for expressing meaning (remember that one), concepts etc. For this purpose it is extremely useful, but so is swahili.

What zaaydragon is talking about here is a book and a concept that would be the same in any language. If, as he is claiming, the book and concept are made up of extracts from other cults/myths/religions then christianity can hardly claim to be the one true religion can it?

I have noticed a tendency on this forum for christians to avoid debating this historical argument (as also raised elsewhere by Doctor X). Instead their arguments tend to be based on abstract, logic and philosophy. It always strikes me that these are somewhat irrelevant if the very basis for the religion is found to be flawed.
 
zaayrdragon said:
Dare I even point out the fact that the Adam and Eve parable has tracable roots to oral legends and traditions in non-Hebrew culture existant thousands of years before the Bible? Or that large tracts of said Bible are revisions, edits, and outright theft of ideas from various non-Biblical cultures? Dare I point out that the creation tale most likely evolved from similar creation tales of older cultures? Much like the entire Jesus tale is constructed of the same elements, situations, and concepts of other mythologies worldwide?

I recently read a dissertation about how the entire Savior storyline existed dozens of times over before the Gospel writers adopted it and wrapped it around the factual tales of a heretical Jew who was preaching unpopular notions started by an outcast Jewish priest of the times... Seems that Jesus was little more than a Jew-Hippy who was spouting unpopular ideas that went against the established church, and a few decades (centuries?) later, some 'Christians' added a lot of good-old-fashioned myth to this guy borrowed heavily from a very common mythological Savior thread to add legitimacy to their infantile religion. INterestingly enough, someone jumped into the discussion to point out that Satan threw out all those mythological Savior stories centuries in advance to try to corrupt the One True Savior Story...

Anyway, having read far more than merely the Judeo-Christian Bible, it always strikes me as hilarious when people quote from Genesis or refer to the events of the Savior's life as if it were fact, and not merely retelling of old fairy-tales to bring Pagan believers into the fold.

There's a fine book out there called "When God was a Woman" which, I believe, was written by someone calling themselves Merlin Stone - Not exactly an unbiased book, by any means, but the book IS full of references with which one is free to do one's own research, and with which one can see how the Bible and the entire Judeo-Christian faith REALLY evolved into the world. One man's religion is just another man's myth, ultimately.

Radook, you seem to be heavily into the notions of logic, reason, and evidence.. How, exactly, DO you reconcile the fact that almost every truly unique significant factor in the Bible can be clearly traced to sources in pre-Judeo-Christian mythologies? How DO you reconcile the many places in which there is heavy evidence that flawed human authors not only wrote the Bible, but also made significant changes later in the Book's history, or the fact that the Church had to weed out dozens and dozens of texts, many of which promote contradictory views, before settling on what would now be the Bible?

What if, next year, the Pope and a group of Roman Scholars sat down and tossed out half the Old Testament and replaced it with some of the formerly rejected Books, such as the book detailing Adam's first wife, Lilith, or another book that claimed to detail Moses' life AFTER entering the Promised Land? These books are said to have existed - and may yet exist - but were judiciously removed at some point in the Church's long and glorious history. Would your adamant clinging to the Genesis story change if a 2005 Bible were released claiming that God made the Universe from the remains of the older Universe, and that Man appeared spontaneously, surprising the Creator? (No, I don't think any book existed making this claim - it's just another Creation story that was circulating about the time that the Adam and Eve story is believed to have first been recorded).

One immense problem I have with Bible literalists is they often either fail to realize, or choose to ignore, the fact that their precious Scripture has, in fact, changed many times over the course of history. My mother-in-law, in fact, clings to her NIV Bible like it was the original text, and got right offended when I explained to her how the idea of the Trinity was ADDED in the 4th century A.D. (about the same time they decided women had souls). And if you think THAT upset her, you should have SEEN when I whipped out my Apocrypha! "More books? Nonsense - the only Bible is this one RIGHT HERE."

Now, I'm no Bible scholar. Just a person who reads... a LOT... and noticed a LONG time ago how much of this sacred Text borrows from the stories and legends of other lands, other times. It's no different from any other collection of popular myth, with the exception that a large body of people fanatically try HARD to believe EVERY WORD of it.

Well, every word that's convenient to believe. No need to worry about those passages advocating slavery, incest, or the possession of multiple wives and concubines.


That last line where you accuse the bible of encouraging incest destroys the credibility of everything you said before. After all, if you are capable of levelling that kind of accusation then you must be capable of levelling any and all types of accusations as long as they are anti biblical. See the point?

Sadly, in all my years as a spiritual disciplinarian I have come away with the distincr impression that people say these things not because they are familiar with the Bible, or have checked the veracity of the accusations, but very often simply because it is the popular thing to say. They do not verify it--they just say it.

BTW

Even the rules of logic are twisted or ignored or denied when it comes to God. The same people who refuse to accept perfectly logical aruments when it comes to God insist vehemently that you accept their atheistic antbiblical ones because according to them logic must be listened to. In other words, as long as the table is tilted to their advantage logic is ok, If the tabkle shifts to creation's support then logic is not OK. Since those are the rules we are playing with here then I say---OK let's play according to your tilting tables rules..

BTW
Satan is a mimicking God.
He mimicks in order to mislead.
So the similarities you mention are no surprise whatsoever.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 

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