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Christian activists gather enough support to launch bill banning abortion

Abdul Alhazred

Philosopher
A
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Messages
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When you have a negative population growth and 2,000,000 abortions per year, it's time to rethink things.
 
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I forsee an exodus of women from Russia if this should pass. Women won't stop ending pregnancies just because it's illegal. They simply move abroad, or use less safe methods.

Another dumb piece of proposed legislation in Russia.
 
Seismosaurus said:
I had no idea people's rights depended on the population growth rate.
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This is Russia we're talking about. The rights of the peasantry have always been subservient to the interests or even whims of the ruling class.

But more generally, a society which cannot reproduce will die. Our ideals cannot defeat math.
 
Ziggurat said:
This is Russia we're talking about. The rights of the peasantry have always been subservient to the interests or even whims of the ruling class.
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But should they?

But more generally, a society which cannot reproduce will die. Our ideals cannot defeat math.
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Survival trumps liberty? Hmmm.
 
Seismosaurus said:
But should they?
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I don't think they should, but I have no say in the matter. Neither do the Russian peasantry.

But if it makes you feel any better, Russia is sufficiently corrupt that I doubt a ban would do very much. Public demand is obviously very high, possibly enough to create a sizable black market even among qualified medical providers.

Survival trumps liberty? Hmmm.
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It will trump liberty, whether or not we want it to. The future belongs to those who show up.
 
so some religious nutters are forcing their religion on others once again.
 
No. They are free, in a democracy, to advocate for their position. (Whether Russia is a "true democracy" is an open question, but they do have elections and some of the forms of a democracy).
Freedom's a real messy thing, and it does not depend on the opinion of Dcdrac to function.
Nor that of Darth Rotor.
 
Darth Rotor said:
No. They are free, in a democracy, to advocate for their position. (Whether Russia is a "true democracy" is an open question, but they do have elections and some of the forms of a democracy).
Freedom's a real messy thing, and it does not depend on the opinion of Dcdrac to function.
Nor that of Darth Rotor.
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You really shouldn´t draw on concepts like "democracy" and "freedom" to try and understand what´s going on in Russia.

If Putin wants abortion and birth control outlawed, they will be. And whether or not he wants them depends not on the will of the people, or on their rights, but solely on want outlawing them will do to his grasp of power.
 
shecky said:
Ceaușescu was right!
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No, he was wrong. It was naive to think that government can successfully control reproduction to such an extent. Russia may face similar results if they proceed to outlaw abortion, as I already mentioned.

But this doesn't change the fact that childless societies will collapse. It just means that if you want to avoid that fate, you need to find ways to make people want to have children, and outlawing abortion doesn't do that.
 
marplots said:
You say that like a negative population growth is a bad thing. It's not.
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Russia's negative population growth is great for us, since it means a weaker future Russia, and Russia is our enemy. It's a bad thing for Russia, though.
 
Ziggurat said:
... you need to find ways to make people want to have children ...
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.
.
Order of Mother Heroine

momherot1t.jpg


Established 8 July 1944. Awarded to Mothers for bearing and rearing 10 or more children. Made of Gold and Silver.
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.
.
Order of Maternal Glory

mglot1v1.jpg


Established 8 July 1944. Awarded to Mothers for bearing and rearing children.
1st Class-Awarded to Mothers of 9 children.
2nd Class-Awarded to Mothers of 8 children.
3rd Class-Awarded to Mothers of 7 children.
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:cool:
 
Ziggurat said:
No, he was wrong.
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Not according to the Orthodox activists. An irony apparently not well picked up by them.

The idea that childless societies will collapse is kind of like Peak Oil though. Sort of a theoretical concern among a certain class of hand wringers that takes no account (perhaps doesn't even understand) of the concept of incentives. Or how such a policy makes the prospect of child bearing even less attractive.
 
shecky said:
Not according to the Orthodox activists. An irony apparently not well picked up by them.

The idea that childless societies will collapse is kind of like Peak Oil though. Sort of a theoretical concern among a certain class of hand wringers that takes no account (perhaps doesn't even understand) of the concept of incentives. Or how such a policy makes the prospect of child bearing even less attractive.
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I agree that many of the people concerned with the problem don't really understand (or aren't addressing) the real incentive problems involved. But I disagree that this is a theoretical concern. It's a very real concern, that is already having negative consequences today and will have even more serious negative consequences in the future. One can argue about how appropriate the word "collapse" is (though I will note that the Soviet Union collapsed - it doesn't have to be a Mad Max apocalypse), but serious negative consequences are now inevitable for Russia. The open question is not whether things will get bad, the question is how much worse will it get, and for how long? I do not expect banning abortion would do much to fix their demographic decline, but it is still very much in their interest to fix the problem.
 
Chaos said:
You really shouldn´t draw on concepts like "democracy" and "freedom" to try and understand what´s going on in Russia.

If Putin wants abortion and birth control outlawed, they will be. And whether or not he wants them depends not on the will of the people, or on their rights, but solely on want outlawing them will do to his grasp of power.
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It isn't that simple, and I think you know that. As I pointed out, how effective a popular move is in Russia will vary differently than it will vary elsewhere, due to the concentrations of power you allude to.

He is also aware, as a politician, of how various things do or don't sell with the general public. I am not sure he is as tone deaf as you suggest, though I'll agree with you that more often than not "my way or the highway" is how it would work out.
 
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