Christ minsters to the dead; hence, no hellfire for anyone

[Vortigern99]

Christ ministers to the dead; hence, no hellfire for anyone

There is a passage somewhere* in the Big Book of Judeo-Christian Mythology (IE The Bible) which asserts that Jesus ministered to the spirits of the dead. In that event "He" essentially converted dead souls to Christianity, saved them from the lake of fire, and averred that they would be resurrected among the saved on Judgment Day.

*I don't have chapter and verse, but I've read and examined it in the past. If anyone can provide the exact quote, from any translation, I will be greatly appreciative.

The way I interpret this (and others may disagree) is that, even if it turns out that the Christian/biblical worldview is correct, and that belief in Christ is required to avoid eternal punishment in the fires of Hell, even non-believers will be approached by Christ after their death and will be given a last chance to accept "Him" and so avoid Hell.

This seems reasonable. It would be unreasonable and objectionable if God/Christ insisted that we take some other fallible, error-prone human being's word for it, and if "He" expected us to accept "Him" during our lifetimes, despite all evidence to the contrary, on the say-so of an ancient, error-ridden book.

Yet if Christ is who the Bible claims "Him" to be (an astronomically unlikely event), and "He" comes to us after death with proof of His godhood, proof of His proposition, then the choice to side with Him in Heaven is easy, the deal sound, the expectations placed upon us reasonable and acceptable.

Note that I personally do not believe that this will be the case. But what it does do, at least, is provide a shield against the claims of hellfire-n-brimstone evangelists that we must accept their word for it on the matter. Since Christ ministers to the dead, as described in the Bible, I will await "His" pronouncement of the great and glorious truth of resurrection and eternal life. If that pronouncement never comes, then the Bible is simply wrong and its ideas can be discarded as myth, legend and metaphor.

 

[sphenisc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell might help.

 

[hgc]

Congratulations on this thesis. That's what I love about theology: it's endlessly flexible. Even when practiced by an amateur.

 

[Marduk]

So Adam and Eve were in Hell
for eating an apple
thats pretty severe imo

 

[leon_heller]

They could, presumably, have atoned for their sins, and not gone to Hell. I suppose that populating the Earth would have counted in their favour. They wouldn't have been able to enter Heaven, though, as they hadn't been baptised. I know a bit about that stuff as I was brought up as a Catholic, although I saw the light when I was about 15 and became an atheist.

 

[John Jones]

So Adam and Eve were in Hell
for eating an apple
thats pretty severe imo

God is one rough old man when it comes-down to sin.

Don't trifle with God if you know what's good for you!

 

[Vortigern99]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell might help.

Yes, thank you. The passages to which I refer, in the main, are those found in 1 Peter:

* 1 Peter 3:19–20 says that Jesus "went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah…."

* 1 Peter 4:6 says that the gospel was "proclaimed even to the dead…."

The "spirits in prison" are those trapped in Sheol, the Judaic afterlife which is like a state of perpetual sleep. This interpretation is supported by passages in Isaiah, Psalms etc. which refer to the "prison" of the afterlife and the spirit "captives" kept therein.

If the gospel is "proclaimed even to the dead," essentially none of has anything to worry about from a Christian perspective. Unbelievers, atheists and heretics will all be personally administered to by Christ after our deaths.

Personally, I will put greater stock in a disembodied spirit approaching me after my own bodily death than I will in door-to-door solicitors, well-meaning friends or neighbors, guys yelling on street corners, professional hucksters, or those sincerely called to their vocation during life.

 

[drkitten]

Yes, thank you. The passages to which I refer, in the main, are those found in 1 Peter:

* 1 Peter 3:19–20 says that Jesus "went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah…."

* 1 Peter 4:6 says that the gospel was "proclaimed even to the dead…."

The "spirits in prison" are those trapped in Sheol, the Judaic afterlife which is like a state of perpetual sleep. This interpretation is supported by passages in Isaiah, Psalms etc. which refer to the "prison" of the afterlife and the spirit "captives" kept therein.

If the gospel is "proclaimed even to the dead," essentially none of has anything to worry about from a Christian perspective. Unbelievers, atheists and heretics will all be personally administered to by Christ after our deaths.

Wrong tense. The Harrowing of Hell (already cited) was a one-time event when Christ went to Hell to rescue the various righteous patriarchs who nevertheless were denied entry to Heaven because they'd not had a chance to accept Christ's grace. Standard Christian/Catholic theology, treated very well in Dante's Inferno if you're interested.

But you, and I, and everyone else we know have already had the opportunity to accept Christ and His salvation, which means that there's no reason to assume it will be offered to us specifically again.

Think of it, if you like, as a grandfather clause. Because that's how standard theology thinks of it.

 

[Vortigern99]

Heckfire, I just realized I misspelled "ministers" in the thread title. I changed it in the OP, but it remains in the title. I "hate" when that happens!

 

[Vortigern99]

Wrong tense. The Harrowing of Hell (already cited) was a one-time event when Christ went to Hell to rescue the various righteous patriarchs who nevertheless were denied entry to Heaven because they'd not had a chance to accept Christ's grace. Standard Christian/Catholic theology, treated very well in Dante's Inferno if you're interested.

But you, and I, and everyone else we know have already had the opportunity to accept Christ and His salvation, which means that there's no reason to assume it will be offered to us specifically again.

Think of it, if you like, as a grandfather clause. Because that's how standard theology thinks of it.

Of course, and I've considered this objection. I must concede that 1 Peter describes the event as singular, a one-time-only deal in which "He" expressly saved the "eight in all" persons who were on the Ark, including Noah. Other passages and other traditions ascribe the salvation of many other "captive" souls, namely Judaic prophets from pre-Christian times, to the event. There is no indication anywhere that this is a repeated, on-going activity.

And yet, neither is there any contradiction that it is repeated or on-going. The NT never tells us expressly that "it only happened once". Moreover, if God/Christ is a merciful god, as the Bible certainly avows that "He" is, then it only follows logically that Christ would administer to those who could not receive His message, for one reason or another, during their lifetimes. In order to maintain the proposition that God is loving/merciful, which is key to conversions and proselytizing, then Christ must repeat the act described in 1 Peter etc. many times over. He must minister to:

1) persons so far removed from the purview of Christianity that they never heard or read the gospel during the lifetime (EG the !Kung San of Africa before about 1550 CE, just to name one example); and

2) persons who reject or disbelieve in God owing to: a) human fallibilities created by God Himself and instilled in His creations; or if one rejects a), then b) the activity of a spiritual enemy named Satan which endeavors to deceive humanity but which is ultimately weaker than God; or if one rejects both of these, then c) the rational capacity of the human mind to accept only evidence that has been confirmed, corroborated, verified and repeated.

At least, that is my perception and interpretation of the passages. Your proverbial mileage may proverbially vary.

 

[Cainkane1]

There is a passage somewhere* in the Big Book of Judeo-Christian Mythology (IE The Bible) which asserts that Jesus ministered to the spirits of the dead. In that event "He" essentially converted dead souls to Christianity, saved them from the lake of fire, and averred that they would be resurrected among the saved on Judgment Day.

*I don't have chapter and verse, but I've read and examined it in the past. If anyone can provide the exact quote, from any translation, I will be greatly appreciative.

The way I interpret this (and others may disagree) is that, even if it turns out that the Christian/biblical worldview is correct, and that belief in Christ is required to avoid eternal punishment in the fires of Hell, even non-believers will be approached by Christ after their death and will be given a last chance to accept "Him" and so avoid Hell.

This seems reasonable. It would be unreasonable and objectionable if God/Christ insisted that we take some other fallible, error-prone human being's word for it, and if "He" expected us to accept "Him" during our lifetimes, despite all evidence to the contrary, on the say-so of an ancient, error-ridden book.

Yet if Christ is who the Bible claims "Him" to be (an astronomically unlikely event), and "He" comes to us after death with proof of His godhood, proof of His proposition, then the choice to side with Him in Heaven is easy, the deal sound, the expectations placed upon us reasonable and acceptable.

Note that I personally do not believe that this will be the case. But what it does do, at least, is provide a shield against the claims of hellfire-n-brimstone evangelists that we must accept their word for it on the matter. Since Christ ministers to the dead, as described in the Bible, I will await "His" pronouncement of the great and glorious truth of resurrection and eternal life. If that pronouncement never comes, then the Bible is simply wrong and its ideas can be discarded as myth, legend and metaphor.

You mean Jack Chick is wrong?

 

[Kopji]

You would all make fine Mormons,
...who do believe in a remedial hell, but the mainstream Christian belief is what drkitten stated.

 

[leon_heller]

Apparently, heaven and hell as places where we go when we die didn't exist before Jesus came along. Judaism seems to have a concept of heaven, but it is where God lives, and there is something like purgatory.

 

[Ferguson]

I think the intention is that it was just a one-off.
That way, when you're approaching prospective Jews, you don't have to say, "Hi! All your ancestors and heroes are burning in a lake of fire because my God sent them there, worship him so you don't join them!" which might quite rightly earn you a knuckle sandwich.
This way you can threaten them with hellfire, but say all those cool cats from the past like Moses probably made it up there when JC went on his helltour.

 

[tourmaline]

You would all make fine Mormons,
...who do believe in a remedial hell, but the mainstream Christian belief is what drkitten stated.

Well then, perhaps its time for a new revelation of the Word. The Gospel of Vortigern99, a Modern-day Saint.

 

[Kopji]

Well then, perhaps its time for a new revelation of the Word. The Gospel of Vortigern99, a Modern-day Saint.

New revelation never works. The best technique is to present whatever you are saying/doing/going to do, as a return to an original teaching that was somehow lost through time; only heretics are foolish enough to propose something new.

 

[tourmaline]

New revelation never works. The best technique is to present whatever you are saying/doing/going to do, as a return to an original teaching that was somehow lost through time; only heretics are foolish enough to propose something new.

Seemed to work out well for Joseph Smith.

 

[Kopji]

JS died in a shootout, somehow seems very all-Amercian. Worked out well for Brigham Young though.

Ok I'm sorry. Back to topic... somehow.

The problem I have with the notion of the dead being ministered to is that it makes the purpose of this life redundant. If we can choose Jesus after we die and go to hell, well why not?

 

[Marduk]

Judaism seems to have a concept of heaven, but it is where God lives, and there is something like purgatory.

Three guesses where they stole that from wholesale

The problem I have with the notion of the dead being ministered to is that it makes the purpose of this life redundant. If we can choose Jesus after we die and go to hell, well why not?

You haven't thought it through. The purpose of this life is so that you get tired enough to appreciate a long sleep. when Jesus turns up banging on my casket I'll be telling him where to go. "No I'm sorry Jesus I do not want to join your bloody eternal celestial choir".
Honestly its got to be worse than having the JW, the mormons and the scientologists knocking you up early on a sunday.

 

[GlennB]

Personally, I will put greater stock in a disembodied spirit approaching me after my own bodily death than I will in door-to-door solicitors, well-meaning friends or neighbors, guys yelling on street corners, professional hucksters, or those sincerely called to their vocation during life.

Yep, that would just about swing it for me too