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Chopra vs. Dawkins

Deepak Chopra said:
Caltech physicist Leonard Mlodinow, co-author with Stephen Hawking of The Grand Design, has written a new book with me on the deep issues involved around science and God, called War of the Worldviews. In it he says, "While science often casts doubt on spiritual beliefs and doctrines insofar as they make representations about the physical world, science does not -- and cannot -- conclude that God is an illusion." Our book is in a long line of considered treatments from many quarters.

What-what-whaaaaaaaaat?!?

Leonard Mlodinow is that guy who got up from the audience at the debate that Shermer and Harris had with Chopra and Jean Houston and essentially said that Chopra doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to quantum physics...isn't he?

What's he doing writing a book with Chopra? Is this some kind of agreement where they would argue why the other person is wrong? (I suppose the title War of the Worldviews suggests that). But if Leonard Mlodinow thought that he was entering into a "good faith" arrangement with Chopra didn't he think it more likely that Chopra will now start claiming that his quantum-Dephism is now being endorsed by Caltech physicists?

And do I take it that Huffington Post is a receptacle for this kind of sickly spiritualism?
 
What-what-whaaaaaaaaat?!?

Leonard Mlodinow is that guy who got up from the audience at the debate that Shermer and Harris had with Chopra and Jean Houston and essentially said that Chopra doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to quantum physics...isn't he?

What's he doing writing a book with Chopra? Is this some kind of agreement where they would argue why the other person is wrong? (I suppose the title War of the Worldviews suggests that). But if Leonard Mlodinow thought that he was entering into a "good faith" arrangement with Chopra didn't he think it more likely that Chopra will now start claiming that his quantum-Dephism is now being endorsed by Caltech physicists?

And do I take it that Huffington Post is a receptacle for this kind of sickly spiritualism?
Chopra suggests that quite a few other scientists and thinkers agree with him. Leaving aside the simple truth that arguments from authority are not definitive in matters of science, I'll bet dollars to donuts they don't, not really. Remember, Deepak's stated views on religion and consciousness are a bit, shall we say, inconsistent with those proposed by mainstream religions. Deepak somehow adheres to the notion that his views are scientifically supported, which OUGHT to mean that people ought to be compelled to them whether they agree with them or not. (True science does this. It compels you to adapt your view of reality, whether you want to or not.) Unfortunately, the people taking the lead, the ones who are doing the observations and making the mathematical calculations, do not directly support Deepak's model that magical thinking has some significant role to play in understanding how the universe works.

And by the way, the Huffington Post does allow publication of a lot of points of view, some of them pseudoscientific. It has led some science-grounded folks like Phil Plait to refrain from contributing (although he does get quoted on the site from time to time).
 
Unfortunately for woos there is nothing spiritual or mysterious about inspirations through dreams.

The brain can continue to think during dreaming. If a person is occupied with a conundrum through work or life or whatever other aspects of conscious activity, then during the subconscious activity the brain can continue to think about it.

If a solution is happened upon during dreaming, it is only a manifestation of the brain. There is nothing extra-cranial about it.
This is a good point. I can say from experience that there are times I solved puzzles in my dreams that I could not solve when waking. (Curiously, many of them involved video games. I'd be stuck, stuck, STUCK at a level, but after a night's sleep, I'd suddenly have a new approach or two ... which were often successful in getting me to the next level.)

Inspiration comes from other places as well. Just keeping your eyes and ears open can help you see patterns in the clouds, for example, or strange meanings in figures of speech. The point, though, is that inspiration is not in and of itself knowledge. Inspiration is a starting spot, and it may the beginning of a path that leads absolutely nowhere. The knowledge comes from the investigation, the hard work, the mathematics, the application of the scientific method. As far as I've been able to discover, there is not one tittle of knowledge that has ever been produced by magical thinking.

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When I saw the thread title, I expected some kind of showdown. Preferably a duel, where Dawkins uses Sciencee and Deepak Chopra uses God to fight.
 
Chopra suggests that quite a few other scientists and thinkers agree with him. Leaving aside the simple truth that arguments from authority are not definitive in matters of science, I'll bet dollars to donuts they don't, not really. Remember, Deepak's stated views on religion and consciousness are a bit, shall we say, inconsistent with those proposed by mainstream religions. Deepak somehow adheres to the notion that his views are scientifically supported, which OUGHT to mean that people ought to be compelled to them whether they agree with them or not. (True science does this. It compels you to adapt your view of reality, whether you want to or not.) Unfortunately, the people taking the lead, the ones who are doing the observations and making the mathematical calculations, do not directly support Deepak's model that magical thinking has some significant role to play in understanding how the universe works.

Yes, I saw him in that CalTech debate in which he was spewing out all kinds of unfounded claims. Leonard Mlodinow was at the debate in the audience. Later on there was a kind of re-match in which Leonard Mlodinow and Shermer were back on stage with Chopra.

I just fail to see what Leonard Mlodinow thinks is going to be achieved co-writing books with Chopra on this subject. It seems obvious that Chopra is going to use this as a badge of recognition as if quantum scientists are taking Chopran materialistic*-spirituality seriously.
 
Yes, I saw him in that CalTech debate in which he was spewing out all kinds of unfounded claims. Leonard Mlodinow was at the debate in the audience. Later on there was a kind of re-match in which Leonard Mlodinow and Shermer were back on stage with Chopra.

I just fail to see what Leonard Mlodinow thinks is going to be achieved co-writing books with Chopra on this subject. It seems obvious that Chopra is going to use this as a badge of recognition as if quantum scientists are taking Chopran materialistic*-spirituality seriously.

I'm just speculating here, but I imagine Chopra was going to publish his book anyway and Mlodinow might have decided it would serve everyone better if an opposing view was included.

Also, thanks to Oprah, this Chopra bloke sells millions of books, he is a household name. Leonard Mlodinow? Not so much. If the point is to get your message to as many people as possible, then I can see why he might want to hitch his wagon to Chopra's stardom.
 
A few other thoughts occured to me, after I completed Susskind's "The Black Hole War." Quantum theory, upon which Chopra hangs his hat for some of his goofball pronouncements, has been changing in the last twenty years, more than most of us realize. Those whom he thinks are allies may have modified (or even abandoned or backed down from) some of the views that Chopra deemed supportive.

One may wonder thus: if the supposed scientific allies WERE to change their views (real scientists DO that from time to time), would Chopra abandon his religious notions as unfounded? I don't know, but if I had to make a bet, I know where I'd put my money.

In Susskind's book, there is no emphasis upon fundamental particle consciousness or anything like that. Rather, concepts that others have described in terms of conscious observation are described by Susskind without any need for consciousness of any kind--except for the consciousness of the experimenter, if there is one. I cannot recall there ever being a hint that any particle has or is affected by consciousness.

Also, one has to distinguish between a concept that helps explain a model, and the actual, rigorous mathematical model itself. (There's those pesky mathematics again!) Susskind repeatedly tries to illustrate some of the concepts associated with some quantum weirdness, and in almost every case, he cautions that these illustrations are not quite reflective of reality in all respects, though they can be useful and helpful in visualizing various ideas. So it may be instructive for a physicist to say something like, "It is as if the particle knows it is being observed!" But we should remember that this is NOT the same thing as saying, "The particle knows it is being observed!"
 
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One may wonder thus: if the supposed scientific allies WERE to change their views (real scientists DO that from time to time), would Chopra abandon his religious notions as unfounded? I don't know, but if I had to make a bet, I know where I'd put my money.

True, but what if Chopra's goofball ideas turn out to be right and we are indeed all souls made of fluffy clouds riding on the giant fluffy cloud of universal consciousness. Would we acknowledge that Chopra is right in such a case?;)
 
True, but what if Chopra's goofball ideas turn out to be right and we are indeed all souls made of fluffy clouds riding on the giant fluffy cloud of universal consciousness. Would we acknowledge that Chopra is right in such a case?;)

He'd still have "punch me" face.
 
Newton adhered to church dogma, and spent considerable time and effort trying to "prove" the legitimacy of the church's claims. (This expense of time and effort was a total waste, as it resulted in no increase in scientific knowledge.)

I'm always interested in what people identify as "a waste of time." If a scientist trying to validate a claim fails to do so, don't future scientist at least know - "that's probably a blind alley, Newton tried it and didn't get anywhere."

Are all scientific quests that fail to increase scientific knowledge a waste of time?
 
People who are good thinkers during sleep tend to dream more useful things, like poems and novels and solutions to computing or math or chemical formulas.

Is there a study about this?
 
Is there a study about this?


This book is good
The Scientific Study of Dreams: Neural Networks, Cognitive Development, and Content Analysis


Here is an excerpt:
Dream Content and Waking Cognition
Findings from the study of dream content not only suggest links with the neural network for dreaming, but also with waking cognition. In particular, the continuity principle provides the same kind of strong connection between dreaming and waking cognition that has been demonstrated by the neuropsychological and developmental evidence presented earlier in this chapter. This continuity leads to the hypothesis that both dreaming and waking cognition are dealing with the same psychological issues to a large extent. This hypothesis provides the basis for linking a neurocognitive model of dreams with what is known about waking cognition.

However, as shown by the evidence concerning the repetition principle in the previous section, the continuity principle does not operate entirely in terms of current personal interests and concerns. Dream content is also continuous in varying degrees for different individuals with past waking concerns. Discrepancies between current waking concerns and current dream content, such as dreaming about painful events that are no longer thought about in waking life, could be used to see how the continuity and repetition principles interact with each other to shape dream content.

The starting point for adding a cognitive dimension to the model is the concept of a "conceptual system," or system of schemas and scripts, which is the organizational basis for all human knowledge and beliefs. Most of this system is thought to be unconscious, in the sense of being outside of conscious awareness, but some of it can become conscious as well. It consists of both experientially based and figurative concepts, both of which are processed and understood equally fast and well according to experimental studies (Gibbs, 1994; Gibbs, 1999). The conceptual system builds on three types of experiential categories that are based upon bodily sensations and interactions with the world: basic level, spatial relations, and sensorimotor (Lakoff & Johnson, 1999).

Basic-level categories arise through the interaction of inherited neural structures with patterns of stimuli from the environment. They reflect distinctions among types of animals, such as cows, horses, and goats, or types of social interactions, such as friendly and aggressive interactions, or types of actions, such as walking and running. Basic-level categories are most directly distinguished from other categories by the fact that a single mental image can represent an entire category, such as a "dog" or a "cat," a "boat" or a "car" (Murphy & Lassaline, 1997). In addition to the large number of basic-level categories, there are also spatial relations categories that are experiential in nature, such as "up," "down," "in front of," and "in back of." Comparative linguistic studies show that "there is a relatively small collection of primitive image schemas that structure systems of spatial relations in the world's languages" (Lakoff & Johnson, 1999, p. 35). Finally, there are sensorimotor categories that are based on direct experience of such varied qualities as temperature, motion, and touch.

Dreams are thought of as highly "symbolic" in many different cultures, including Western civilization, but the findings from content analysis suggest that dreams may consist primarily of constructions arising from experiential categories. Based on his reading of thousands of dreams collected from children, teenagers, and adults in the sleep laboratory, Foulkes (1985) concludes that most dreams are "simulations" of real-world experiences. Young adult dreamers are often shopping, playing sports, visiting with their friends, arguing with their parents, worrying about the faithfulness of their lovers, or feeling tempted to be unfaithful themselves. The content of young children's dreams is usually even more realistic.
 
Take the benzene story. How do we know that benzene has a ring-shape? To hear Chopra, it's because a scientist had a dream of a snake eating a tail. The story is true enough, and you will even find it in chemistry texts, but I doubt that there is a single chemistry text that would say that KNOWLEDGE about the structure of benzene came from a dream. INSPIRATION for a new model came from a dream, but if that model was tested and failed, then the model would have to be discarded or revised. And if the model held up, then there was no more validity to it merely because it was inspired by a dream.

What is also missing from Chopra's version is all the failed attempts at coming up with a structure of benzene (there were lots of postulated structures), which could have just as easily originated from dreams, too. But they were all wrong.
 
I largely agree with what you've written in the original post, but unfortunately I have this habit of playing devil's advocate (or God's advocate in this case, I suppose).

God's advocate! I like that! There should be a little emoticon thingy like there is with devil's advocate.
 

Sleep and dreaming are two of the great mysteries of life to me. It's so weird that for 16 hours we work, eat, watch TV, make love ... whatever ... and then our sleepy hormones get released? Or something, and it's like our brain says, "Let's unplug from input and hallucinate for 8 hours!"

I know, not literally 8 hours, per REM studies. But sleep is to me an enigma. A lot of times my dog seems to be asleep, but is actually not quite asleep - she reacts in real time to stimuli - and yet at other times she appears to actually have been in a different state of consciousness and wakes with surprise, like, "what the ...? I thought I was chasing a cat!" Like when a person wakes up.

This is WAY woo but at age 4 I had a dream a snake was spitting at me, before I knew about cobras. The dream had all the sensations associated with washing a car on a hot day in a Sun Belt suburb in the 1960s. And then there was this snake that spat at me as I ran away. Who knows what layers I've added since then, but the hot metal, the smell of suds, the wet asphalt stay with me.

And cheerfully I admit ... I haven't read much Dawkins OR Chopra, but I did meet Chopra, and he seemed nice. I kind of have a "thing" for Indian men. I heard a consciousness theorist say Chopra didn't understand quantum mechanics. On the other hand I don't think the consciousness theorist did, either. Personally, I don't have the math, but I know it exists.

At one of these quantum consciousness things I asked an M.D. who was going back to school to get a Ph.D. in particle physics, "Do you really need a Ph.D in particle physics to understand this stuff?

And he said,

"Yes."
 
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This is WAY woo but at age 4 I had a dream a snake was spitting at me, before I knew about cobras. The dream had all the sensations associated with washing a car on a hot day in a Sun Belt suburb in the 1960s. And then there was this snake that spat at me as I ran away. Who knows what layers I've added since then, but the hot metal, the smell of suds, the wet asphalt stay with me.



I cannot remember anything before the age of 5 let alone a dream at the age of 4.


There are many hypotheses about the nature of dreams and dreaming. I am sure you already know about Freud and Jung.

Freud wrote many books about the subject. But he is antiquated now.
 
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I just fail to see what Leonard Mlodinow thinks is going to be achieved co-writing books with Chopra on this subject. It seems obvious that Chopra is going to use this as a badge of recognition as if quantum scientists are taking Chopran materialistic*-spirituality seriously.

I also heard about their upcoming book when Chopra, Mlodinow, Hawking and some Jesuit were on the panel on CNN to discuss The Grand Design. I don't know why Mlodinow gives this fraud an appearance of credibility. Especially when Chopra declares that Mlodinow and Hawking have "disproved materialism", and goes on about the essence of religious experience.

Chopra's recent article against Dawkins is full of strawmen. Again, why is this fraud taken seriously?
 
I cannot remember anything before the age of 5 let alone a dream at the age of 4.

I've done some reading but it's been a while. Honestly my dreams are filled with so much junk they don't seem worth the trouble to interpret. I remember somewhere reading that we impose a narrative on random images after we've woken up, which sounds plausible. I've also experienced "lucid dreaming." Richard Feynmann has a great take on that. It has been psychologically useful on a couple of occasions. The dream being, I am in great fear, I am hiding from an intruder, or some such. Then I realize I'm dreaming and confront the intruder - get the *&$% out of my house! And wake feeling empowered. What it all MEANS - jeez. Anyway it's an odd manifestation of mind to me, and prolific.
 

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