Choosing belief.

[thaiboxerken]

People often talk about how they chose to believe in their god, religions, psychics and other nonsense based on their own experiences and evidence........I don't believe them, however. I think belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction. I really do want to believe that people have superpowers, but I simply am not convinced, that's why I'm a skeptic/atheist.

Do people actually have the power to choose what they believe?

 

[triadboy]

Do people actually have the power to choose what they believe?

I can't imagine. It's like choosing your sexual preference. I don't remember the traumatic childhood event when I chose to be straight, but apparently - according to xians - it happened.

 

[Frostbite]

Beliefs altogether are useless. I mean, what's the use of living for a belief which could turn out to be wrong? What's so wrong with living with uncertainties?

 

[frisian]

Beliefs altogether are useless. I mean, what's the use of living for a belief which could turn out to be wrong? What's so wrong with living with uncertainties?

Hmm, if everything is determined by "something" what is really uncertain?

 

[frisian]

First one would need to define what "I" is, or whatever it is that is determining to act or choose. Even if choice is illusionary in terms of an individual and in reality that choice is directed by outside factors, you could say that the outside factors determined aka chose.

So in essence a person does choose beliefs, what motivates that belief may be influenced outside of them, so perhaps not the direct "chooser" none the less at least there is an illusion of choice or a person is the conduit to enact that choice or "make" that determination.

 

[frisian]

If one wants to say that it isn't "I" that choose belief, then you could go a step further and declare Descartes declaration "I think, therefore I am" is just as absurd. What makes one assume that it is yourself that guided the thinking?

 

[Jas]

I don't think that you can really choose a belief, but you can choose to deny such a belief. I mean, I would desperately like to believe that loved ones who have died live on, and that I will see them again, à la 'What Dreams May Come'. Much as I would like to believe it, I can't make myself.

 

[Yahweh]

People often talk about how they chose to believe in their god, religions, psychics and other nonsense based on their own experiences and evidence........I don't believe them, however. I think belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction. I really do want to believe that people have superpowers, but I simply am not convinced, that's why I'm a skeptic/atheist.

Do people actually have the power to choose what they believe?

I've been saying this for years.

I do not believe a person's beliefs can be switched from one faith to the other like turning a toggleswitch. Your own inner convictions are about as much of a "choice" as an intense phobia, or personal favorite color.

For this reason, I think concepts of Hell, the classical concept of a Judeo-Christian god who demands worship, and a the god who punishes those who do not affirm his existence is incoherent.

For the same reason, I also encourage people to "play nice" with others of different religious convictions.

I could reference a few threads from other boards where I bring up the "beliefs are not a choice" argument, however my internet has decided to make cooperation as difficult as possible this evening.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I could reference a few threads from other boards where I bring up the "beliefs are not a choice" argument, however my internet has decided to make cooperation as difficult as possible this evening.

Did you choose to believe this? Hehhe.

Many skeptics seem to agree with me on this, but believers tend to think that they have chosen their beliefs. Why is that?

 

[Yahweh]

Many skeptics seem to agree with me on this, but believers tend to think that they have chosen their beliefs. Why is that?

Because deep down, there can never really be anyone who honestly doesnt believe in God. All atheists/materialists are all rebels vainly trying to deny what they know is true... they know God exists, but they HATE Him, all atheists/materialists are all GOD-HATERS.

April Fools!

 

[Jas]

I've never understood this type of logic. So I believe that there is an all-powerful creator being out there, to whom I owe my very life, who could squish me like a bug ('smite', if you will).

Yet I choose to piss him off?

 

[rachaella]

I don't think that belief or lack of is quite as simple as say, choosing the tuna salad over the chicken, but I think there can be a certain amount of choice at least related to a person's beliefs. Like choosing to purposefully ignore any evidence that may lead one to question a strong-held personal belief, the most personal of which seem to usually be religious beliefs.

I think beliefs can be pretty complicated and often based less on evidence than life experience. For instance, a person who holds racist beliefs may have been influenced by his father and these beliefs may be quite closely tied to the relationship he had with his father and his own personal feelings and memories of his father. Based on this belief, he may consciously choose to avoid any evidence that contradict his belief.

I think that in some cases, this reasoning that we have no choice in what we believe, may excuse people who hold truly detrimental beliefs, such as holocaust deniers. When does belief end and choice begin? This is certainly something to ponder.

 

[Atlas]

I've always been fascinated by the believer without conviction. The so called "Sunday Christian". The person who doesn't waste much time thinking about God one way or another.

In everyday life, religion lite has an appeal. You don't have to think about it or argue against it. You waste zero time seeking answers. You live life and enjoy it. You go to church on Sunday for the wife and kids - not because it means anything. But when bad things happen and you need to pray, you can.

I don't believe a lot of folks really like to think. They would rather have someone tell them what to do. But not overtly. We pay preachers to tell us what to do covertly with phrases like WWJD. Jesus used parables. Still, there are a great many too, who are drawn to the Jerry Falwell types that are overt.

As far as choosing belief, I do agree that people have psychological profiles that make them either susceptible to, or at least prefer, one style of thinking over another. It may be a continuum, ranging from "I want someone to do all my thinking and tell me how to live my life" to "Everyones wrong but me!"

I know it's an oversimplification. I haven't mentioned science. Science and Religion are often looked at as opposites. But not necessarily to the person who doesn't like to think. He treats them both the same - they are merely tools. When he needs light he'll flip the switch on. Not with thought but habit. Likewise with religion. When fear visits, or death comes to somone close - he can flip an internal switch, just by training, not with thought - and that gets him through it.

In a way that simple faith is a beautiful thing. Here is what I mean. The mind is always active. If you train it to think on things deeply, when you are taken near the abyss you can be pulled in unless you're properly anchored. But simple folk are anchored by a kind of short circuit that stops them from thinking about troubling, unknown things. They reach a point when they stop looking for the answers and just push thought outward, gabbing away in prayer.

I think it's a valuable defense mechanism for those who have never wanted to ponder the big questions. God is a convenient answer to any question that they might ever face. I can't begrudge them that. The only thing I don't like is when they tell me that I'm mixed up and going to hell unless I change. But that's a different topic.

 

[rachaella]

I agree with much of what Atlas said, but I think less than laziness in not wanting to think but more fear of what may come of it. I know that in my own experience when I start pondering determinism and if everything is predermined (not by fate, but by physics) and if we could perfectly understand everything we could predict the future, I start getting weirded out feeling like I have no control and thus tend to avoid this line of thinking too often. I imagine people can be like that on any number of topics, and God is a big one. The realization that life may in fact have no more meaning than we give to it, and not being used to the concept of giving your own life your own meaning, one may grapple with the idea that since this predermined meaning that God and religion bring to life may be false, then in fact, life may have no meaning or purpose at all! And this is a scary thought. And the realization that after loved ones die, they're really gone is a very painful one to come to as well, as we'd all like to believe the fairy tales about seeing our parents, grandparents, and friends who have died in that distant and picture-perfect future after our own death. I know that my mother chooses to believe that she will see her father after she dies, full knowing that there is no evidence of this and that it is probably just wishful thinking.

I imagine that the more a person clings to a belief the more difficult it can be to let it go, especially a person who has devoted a lot of time and energy to it. Its not easy to realize you've flushed years of your life down the toilet. I imagine my aunt would have more difficulty letting go of her fanatical christianity seeing that she has dozens of index cards with scripture written on them all over her trailer home, much more difficulty than I had in losing my belief in God which was essentially inconsequential in my life.

So I think that the roots of belief are many, from experiences, psychological need, habit, fear, laziness, wish fulfillment, choice, and probably others I haven't mentioned here.

 

[frisian]

I don't think that you can really choose a belief, but you can choose to deny such a belief. I mean, I would desperately like to believe that loved ones who have died live on, and that I will see them again, à la 'What Dreams May Come'. Much as I would like to believe it, I can't make myself.

That has gotten me confused, you cannot choose a belief, but you can CHOOSE to deny such a belief?

Aren't all the "positive" thinking self help books all about "making" oneself believe things that they do not?

 

[frisian]

I think that in some cases, this reasoning that we have no choice in what we believe, may excuse people who hold truly detrimental beliefs, such as holocaust deniers. When does belief end and choice begin? This is certainly something to ponder.

Interesting thoughts, thanks!

 

[daenku32]

You can't argue Religion! Too many unknown things taken as faith!

Even if you have a religious text that says: "It's not quite right to kill". Your Faith can make you understand it as "Killing is OK".

I mean, just try to argue about religious texts that you don't believe to be divine with someone who does. It's doomed to FAIL.

 

[frisian]

You can't argue Religion! Too many unknown things taken as faith!

Even if you have a religious text that says: "It's not quite right to kill". Your Faith can make you understand it as "Killing is OK".

I mean, just try to argue about religious texts that you don't believe to be divine with someone who does. It's doomed to FAIL.

Bah, you don't need religion to determine that you would like to justify killing someone.

 

[Atlas]

I feel like an argument. Here's one now - Thanks daenku32.

You can't argue Religion!

Yes, you can.

Too many unknown things taken as faith!

Oh, I disagree.

Even if you have a religious text that says: "It's not quite right to kill". Your Faith can make you understand it as "Killing is OK".

No, no, no.

I mean, just try to argue about religious texts that you don't believe to be divine with someone who does.

Unh uh - I won't - You try.

It's doomed to FAIL.

It is not!

 

[frisian]

You '"is" funny Atlas.