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Chiropractors work!?

Kogloron said:
I think a controlled study is needed. This really was instant. The pain was not in my mind, I was immobile (license suspended). My physiotherapist will see me next week, he wants me at 80% mobility before he will let me have my license back! Last time he saw me (19th of June) I was at 1/8th mobility. And right now i can safety, and quickly do a shoulder check while driving again! This was seconds after my chiropractic treatment.
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This really is a problem, and it's been a problem for all sorts of therapies.

Let's assume that the effects of a therapy are random. Completely random. They might make things better, or they might make things worse, totally at random.

Now, you only apply the therapy to someone who is badly off. Now, it might make things better, or it might make them worse. But it's so bad that if it makes things worse, their just dead and don't post on randi.org no more.

So it makes things better. Is this a miracle, or what?

Now, then, how do you distinguish the Really Works from the random?

It's like the slapping a TV thing. People only hit the TV when it's not working. They might find, if they hit the TV when it was working, it might make it stop. But they don't.
 
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epepke said:
This really is a problem, and it's been a problem for all sorts of therapies.

Let's assume that the effects of a therapy are random. Completely random. They might make things better, or they might make things worse, totally at random.

Now, you only apply the therapy to someone who is badly off. Now, it might make things better, or it might make them worse. But it's so bad that if it makes things worse, their just dead and don't post on randi.org no more.

So it makes things better. Is this a miracle, or what?

Now, then, how do you distinguish the Really Works from the random?

It's like the slapping a TV thing. People only hit the TV when it's not working. They might find, if they hit the TV when it was working, it might make it stop. But they don't.
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Can't speak for everyone, but it worked for me. And if it didn't work I would still be here. I've been reading these forums for nearly 3 years, and until now I really thought that ALL chiropractors were fakes.

Now if you're looking for a second opinion I could refer you to my dads results. I would give him mixed results, he was immobile, but after the treatment he was able to move again and his pain was better. On the contrary, he's now going EVERY week forever. I won't be caught in that trap. If he tries to bring me in every week (which he likely will) I'll back away and just tell him I'm better and no longer need treatment (Meanwhile I'll seek out another doctor and see what he/she can do)

Again, we're talking instant positive results. On Monday (already paid for and scheduled by my dad) I have another session. If it makes things worse,i'll still be posting here. I want to get to the bottom of this! Considering how i feel now, there isn't a lot of room for improvement anymore! Time will tell! If I suddenly cramp right up afterwards and feel like ◊◊◊◊ you'll know about it!
 
Kogloron said:
Excellent point, I'm not going to get anywhere with my current claims! I can't say for certain that my pain was relieved because of the treatment.

I have a counter for this however.

Why can I suddenly move again? Pain is superficial and open to interpretation. Movement is not. I can demonstrate my increase in mobility, I see it, others see it, and the change is not slight.

To restate my movement so that you need not re-read my first post. I was able to turn my head 1/8th to the right before the chiropractor "popped" my neck, immediately after the treatment (we're talking a span of 30 seconds) I was able to look fully to my right! Today I am holding solid and able to look MOST of the way to the right, but not as much as directly after the treatment.

Pain is too hard to determine, I can claim whatever I want, but it can't be reliably measured. My range of head motion can be determined so we'll use that as the point of reference from now on.

Going against what I just said (and simply to make note that i am appraoching this treatment from both sides) I would like to mention, that my arm pain has very slowly been getting worse since the treatment. Maybe it's related, maybe it's not. Just wanted to put that statement on the record so that you guys know that I'm not making up things like "Miaracle cure OMG, fixed me 100%" My back pain is holding solid at 1/10.
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What do you think the chiropractor did and what do you think was limiting your movement?

Did you know:
What is a muscle spasm?

A muscle spasm, or muscle cramp, is an involuntary contraction of a muscle. Muscle spasms occur suddenly, usually resolve quickly, and are often painful.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
What do you think the chiropractor did and what do you think was limiting your movement?

Did you know:
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Hmm, loaded question, but i'll bite!
I think the chiropractor unpinched my nerve. I've been shown the skeletal models of what my spine currently looks like by a doctor, a physiotherapist and by the chiropractor, and all of them showed me exactly the same thing. One of the disks in my back was squeezing (pinching) a nerve which caused awful arm pain, and was causing my muscle to spasm/swell.

At physiotherapy, I was given exercises to do (which were very painful) and a traction device with a counterweight which took the weight of my head off of my back and relived the nerve.

The counterweight worked VERY well! I spent a couple of hours a day in there! (Often with a handheld video game in my hands :p) The exercise/stretching (called a chin tuck) was a gruelling task! Really hurt! But i did it anyways.

Now finally to answer your question!
What I think the chiropractor did was shift the disk that was causing the pressure! Much like when an earthquake occurs and takes the pressure off of the tectonic plates.

And to answer your last question about the muscle spasm. That was what the doctors assumed I had. After about a week (and my condition worsening) I was told that a muscle spasm was very unlikely. The physiotherapist was trying to get me to get into a position to make my arm stop hurting (in the traction) and then do chin tucks. The logic being that if my arm stops hurting the nerve isn't pinched anymore, and the chin tucks would train my muscle to go back to its normal position!
 
I think it would be really surprising if Chiropractors did not have at least some degree of success. They've been plying their trade for a long time, studying bodies and, to some extent, modifying their specialty away from its former attempt to supersede all other medicine. The time has passed, I think, in which a chiropractic patient with appendicitis could expect to die. A good chiropractor ought to produce at least some relief. What's not entirely apparent, though, is whether that has much if anything to do with the theory of chiropractic, or simply with skills that are shared with other disciplines, including legitimate medical doctors and physical therapists.
 
That's my interpretation. I have no doubt that Kogloron did, in fact, get relief from his visit to the chiropractor but I seriously doubt it was due to traditional chiropractic practice. I think traditional physical therapy practice is at the root of any success he has had. I question whether any other explanation is necessary.
 
Kogloron said:
Can't speak for everyone, but it worked for me. And if it didn't work I would still be here. I've been reading these forums for nearly 3 years, and until now I really thought that ALL chiropractors were fakes.
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And you missed the point of my post by several parsecs.

Look, let's say that the chiropractor did unpinch a nerve. That doesn't say much about the chiropractor's skill. This problem applies not just to chiropractors.

Let's say my TV isn't working, and I bang it. Then it works! Whoopee!

Well, maybe there was a loose connection, and if I banged it, it might equally well break it.

Still, when we hire TV repairmen (does anybody any more?) we might want a better understanding than this.
 
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epepke said:
And you missed the point of my post by several parsecs.

Look, let's say that the chiropractor did unpinch a nerve. That doesn't say much about the chiropractor's skill. This problem applies not just to chiropractors.

Let's say my TV isn't working, and I bang it. Then it works! Whoopee!

Well, maybe there was a loose connection, and if I banged it, it might equally well break it.

Still, when we hire TV repairmen (does anybody any more?) we might want a better understanding than this.
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I don't mean to dismiss you, but i think the 2 posters before you have pretty much solved this. I will gladly grant that you ARE correct! He could have broken me more, but the fact is he fixed me (this time).

I think it's been determined that he used scientifically proven ways of fixing me, and has steered far from the traditional methods of chiropractors. Working with the spine is about as close to being a chiropractor as this guy goes.

He has made claims (which i don't believe) that a healthy spinal cord leads to healthy organs, but if that were the case then paraplegics would have organ failure!
 
bruto said:
I think it would be really surprising if Chiropractors did not have at least some degree of success. They've been plying their trade for a long time, studying bodies and, to some extent, modifying their specialty away from its former attempt to supersede all other medicine. The time has passed, I think, in which a chiropractic patient with appendicitis could expect to die. A good chiropractor ought to produce at least some relief. What's not entirely apparent, though, is whether that has much if anything to do with the theory of chiropractic, or simply with skills that are shared with other disciplines, including legitimate medical doctors and physical therapists.
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Also SezMe's quote:
That's my interpretation. I have no doubt that Kogloron did, in fact, get relief from his visit to the chiropractor but I seriously doubt it was due to traditional chiropractic practice. I think traditional physical therapy practice is at the root of any success he has had. I question whether any other explanation is necessary. End quote


I agree! I think you guys have basically summed this up nicely. I would like to /endthread

If anyone else has something they would like to add I will be monitoring this thread from time to time, but it would seem pointless. Thanks for your help!
 
Kogloron said:
Also SezMe's quote:
That's my interpretation. I have no doubt that Kogloron did, in fact, get relief from his visit to the chiropractor but I seriously doubt it was due to traditional chiropractic practice. I think traditional physical therapy practice is at the root of any success he has had. I question whether any other explanation is necessary. End quote


I agree! I think you guys have basically summed this up nicely. I would like to /endthread

If anyone else has something they would like to add I will be monitoring this thread from time to time, but it would seem pointless. Thanks for your help!
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Kogloron, what you had happen to you is essentially exactly what happens countless times every day. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard someone say that they had horrible back pain until a friend, a relative, a customer, etc. turned them around, crossed their arms infront of them and "cracked their back" (or some massive variation of such), thus freeing them of their pain. Honestly can anyone say they were never told of someone who knows this great technique to "crack backs" that everybody they know swears by? The person doesn't know what they are really accomplishing, but they know that it works.

Now multiply that by a few million and you have Chiropractic.
 
I worked for various chiropractors for years and would bet that I've had more spinal manipulations than anyone on the board (literally thousands). In my experience, it does help, but so do physical therapy and massage therapy. I don't think chiropractic has any special sauce; it's all the same thing, releasing muscle tension, just by different methods.

And certainly claims that it treats anything other than musculoskeletal conditions are hogwash.
 
Kogloron said:
... i think the 2 posters before you have pretty much solved this.
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Confirmation bias.

Kogloron said:
...I think it's been determined that he used scientifically proven ways of fixing me, and has steered far from the traditional methods of chiropractors. Working with the spine is about as close to being a chiropractor as this guy goes.
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What scientific method was that and did we see any evidence of it?


Anatomically, chiropractic spinal manipulation does not actually realign anything. This has been shown time and time again. The abrupt movement can injure structures, but the supposed act of realigning the spine is a fraud.
 
Tomblvd said:
Kogloron, what you had happen to you is essentially exactly what happens countless times every day. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard someone say that they had horrible back pain until a friend, a relative, a customer, etc. turned them around, crossed their arms infront of them and "cracked their back" (or some massive variation of such), thus freeing them of their pain. Honestly can anyone say they were never told of someone who knows this great technique to "crack backs" that everybody they know swears by? The person doesn't know what they are really accomplishing, but they know that it works.

Now multiply that by a few million and you have Chiropractic.
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As I had stated earlier in the thread. Pain is far too difficult to measure. So i've turned over to something which CAN be measured. Mobility. My head could not be turned to the right, if I tried to turn it on my own power I would hit a block where my pain was so intense that I refused to push any harder.

If someone manually turned my head, they could get SLIGHTLY more motion, but all they did is hurt me (note that I let doctors move my head to test my limits, this wasn't something I had random people do for fun)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Confirmation bias.

What scientific method was that and did we see any evidence of it?


Anatomically, chiropractic spinal manipulation does not actually realign anything. This has been shown time and time again. The abrupt movement can injure structures, but the supposed act of realigning the spine is a fraud.
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I'm not a doctor, so I can't say what he did. I would wager then whatever he did released my muscle. My spine is the same shape its always been.

(Sort of like releasing someones leg from a bear trap, and then letting it close again) My spine is the trap, and my muscle is the leg. The trap is still closed when all is said and done, but my leg isn't trapped in it anymore.
 
Kogloron said:
I'm not a doctor, so I can't say what he did. I would wager then whatever he did released my muscle. My spine is the same shape its always been.

(Sort of like releasing someones leg from a bear trap, and then letting it close again) My spine is the trap, and my muscle is the leg. The trap is still closed when all is said and done, but my leg isn't trapped in it anymore.
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You said, "I think it's been determined that he used scientifically proven ways of fixing me". I'm asking you to clarify that statement.
 
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pipelineaudio said:
I don't get it. Why is there apologetics for chiropractic on this board? Isnt it a 100% scam, isnt "the theory of chiropractic" complete and utter rubbish?

So what if a stopped clock is right twice a day?
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And one that runs backwards is twice as accurate
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You said, "I think it's been determined that he used scientifically proven ways of fixing me". I'm asking you to clarify that statement.
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Well, if it wasn't scientifically proven, then chances are that's NOT what fixed me! I can't guarantee that he fixed me with a proven method, but that would make the most sense.

As an update for this thread as a whole. I went to my scheduled appointment with him again today. The effects of his work were...zero...

I've already been fixed. But he insists on seeing me more so he can "keep me fixed" and "Keep the healing process going" He also insists that if I don't regularly come back to visit him then my neck will cramp up again.

As far as I can tell, I have no further need of his services. He took the knot out of my neck/back that was causing me to be immobile (and of course cause me pain) So I'm not going to let him scare me into being a return customer.

It would seem that as time goes on he is starting with the woo. He's now begun talking how he can fix migraines, incontinence, erectile difficulties and a whole slew of other things.

I'm not in that market. Sounds to me like i got VERY VERY lucky! It just happened to be that my pinched nerve was fixed by his first stint on me. All the other "alignments" have done nothing but produce a satisfying popping sound.

My head is mobile again and that's all that matters. I have no doubts that it was his alignment that fixed my mobility, but not because of any magic. It would have been basic anatomy (Read back to my bear trap analogy).
 
From my reading, it seems that chiropractic cannot fix a pinched nerve. Which make me wonder what chiros actually do to provide relief. Whatever it is, it doesn't show up in controlled trials.

Some kind of magic, I suspect.
 
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