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Chiropractic medicine.

(for example, is tai chi adjusting your chi flow? no. it's a good safe low-impact workout).
I did tai chi for a while too, but had to stop because of work commitments. And I totally agree with your assessment of it.

Of course, I had to ignore a lot of woo from the instructor in order to enjoy it, but that wasn't hard.
 
a question about the NHS: can you go outside the plan and get a proper MD if your'e in a hurry and in the mood to burn a stack of cash?


Yes, there are a few private clinics where you can see a GP pretty quickly, but you'd definitely need that stack of cash.

if so are MDs working outside the NHS better, on average, or worse, or do they also work for the NHS?


Probably about the same. There are quite a few MDs involved in (often part-time) private healthcare looking after the 6 million or so of our 60 million population who have private health insurance. The main benefits of private health insurance here are that you’re seen more quickly and usually enjoy a plusher, less impersonal treatment environment.


a question about physios in the US: do they specialize? i'm used to going into an MDs office and seeing degree and certificates for specialties on the wall; i don't recall seeing anything like this in a physio's office (which doesn't mean it wasn't there). for me, and people like me who have used chiros for the only thing they're good for, it would be useful to know how to spot a physio who'd be good at legit spinal manipulation.


It would probably be a good idea to contact the Amercian Physical Therapy Association about that:
http://www.apta.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=&WebsiteKey=
 
a question about the NHS: can you go outside the plan and get a proper MD if your'e in a hurry and in the mood to burn a stack of cash? if so are MDs working outside the NHS better, on average, or worse, or do they also work for the NHS?


Actually, there is no such thing as an "MD" in Britain. Well, it's a very exalted academic award, sometimes honorary I think. The basic medical qualification is MBChB, not actually a doctorate. We just call them doctor because they like it. Then the ones who advance to become surgeons revert to "Mr." for historical reasons.

Every doctor in the NHS is "proper". The question of how and when to go outside the NHS is quite a complicated one though.

Virtually nobody uses a private GP. When you need to see a GP on the NHS you can. You don't have to wait for urgent matters, and really serious urgent matters will get you an NHS ambulance taking you right to the A&E department of the hospital. The only time I've encountered private GPs is in big London rail terminuses, where they cater to the communters with problems not serious enough for them to take time off work and see their own home GP (mostly it will be the rich city types living many miles away in the leafy countryside who use this service). And I gather there are a few private GPs in London who mainly serve rich expatriates such as Arab tycoons, who possibly don't qualify for the NHS and may be too snobbish to use it if they did.

I have no reason to believe the medical standards of the private GPs would be any different from their NHS colleagues, although I'd be a bit wary of a possible tendency to over-investigate and over-service if they are paid by procedures carried out.

However, many people requiring surgery do choose to go private, in order to avoid a wait for treatment on the NHS. This will either be funded by an insurance policy they have taken out against this eventuality (not that expensive, because the insurance company knows that most of their client's healthcare and all emergency treatment will still be taken care of by the NHS), or self-funded.

Someone doing that may well find themselves being operated on by their original NHS consultant, just at a private hospital and much sooner. If you're shopping for elective surgery, the main trick is to find out what your chosen surgeon's NHS position is. All the good ones have prestigious NHS appointments - they're allowed to have their own private practices as well. Avoid anyone without NHS connections, as they could well be substandard, is the advice.

The final category is non-essential surgery such as cosmetic surgery. That is all private of course, and there are clinics pretty much touting for business. Again, the word is to avoid these like the plague and go privately to the best NHS consultant in the appropriate field. It will probably cost you more, but you get what you pay for.

Rolfe.
 
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Chiropactors are very firmly part of "alternative medicine" here.


Although chiropractors don’t seem to think so. This from Peter Dixon, Chairman of the General Chiropractic Council (GCC), in the GCC’s response to the May 2006 article in The Times, ‘NHS told to abandon alternative medicine’:
The inclusion of the chiropractic profession in today’s coverage of the heart-felt letter circulated by Professor Baum and his colleagues seems to be based on the wholly inaccurate impression that chiropractors practice ‘alternative’ medicine. Time has moved on. Let’s all please move with it and give credit to a health profession that, given half a chance, could provide care that could be of real benefit to NHS patients.

http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/THE TIMES re joint letter 23MAY06.pdf


For more disingenuous PR from the GCC see its archives here,
http://www.gcc-uk.org/page.cfm?page_id=182

and its FAQs page here:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/page.cfm?page_id=6

nobody is likely to call them "Dr."


Well, chiropractors certainly like to call themselves “Dr” much of the time. Just take a look under ‘Chiropractors’ in the Yellow Pages and you’ll see how the public could be easily fooled into thinking that chiropractors are MDs (or MBChBs). Interestingly, UK Skeptics have highlighted the problem in its ‘Dangers of chiropractic’ section:
Many people wrongly assume that chiropractors are part of the medical community. They are not: they are part of the alternative medicine industry. Unlike many other alternative practitioners, chiropractors are thought by many to be medically qualified doctors and as such people may place as much trust in their advice as they would in that of qualified doctor.

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=chiropractic.php


I think it should also be mentioned here that although one sCAM establishment, The Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital, looks like it could be on its way out, another, ‘The Royal College of Chiropractors’, looks like it could be on its way in…
5 June 2007 - Towards a Royal Charter: College Council attends House of Lords Reception

College Council members attended a reception organised by Baroness Jean Corston at the House of Lords today. Guests included key figures from the Commons and the Lords keen to hear more about the College and its pursuit of a Royal Charter. Baroness Corston welcomed those present and highlighted the importance of a united chiropractic profession. Tim Jay, College President, explained the value of a Charter to the public and profession. Small group discussions followed enabling MPs and Peers to ask questions of Council members. It was clear there is significant support for the chiropractic profession and the College's pursuit of the Royal Charter. The Council intends to approach the Privy Council later this year to re-open discussions.

http://www.colchiro.org.uk/default.aspx?m=39&mi=202&ms=0

(That link also suggests that the Rt Hon Kevin Barron MP, Chair of the Commons Health Select Committee, is a woo to watch)


For those wishing to object to the proposed Royal Charter for the College of Chiropractors, simply follow the procedure outlined in this link:
Formal applications for Charters are published, to allow other interested individuals or organisations to comment or to lodge counter-petitions. Because the process of Petitioning for a Charter is thus a public one, and can also be expensive in terms of the preparation of the formal documents, this Office encourages institutions to have taken soundings among other bodies who may have an interest, in order to minimise the risk of a counter-petition. Any proposal which is rendered controversial by a counter-petition is unlikely to succeed.

http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page45.asp
 
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The primary medical qualification in the UK is not just MBChB. If you go to London University, then it would be MBBS. If you go to Cambridge, then you would get MB BChir. If you went to Oxford then you would get MB BCh and so on an so forth. Scottish universities award MBChB to their graduates, I believe, as do some other universities in the UK.

In the UK, students can do A levels and go straight to med school following A levels. This is an undergraduate degree and takes 5 to 6 years to complete. However, there are now graduate entry to medicine programmes that have been developed for people who already have good degrees. These courses take 4 years to complete and are similar to the MD programs in the States, where you have to get a BS first and then go through med school for 4 years, then going through Internship, Residency and Attending posts. These are similar to House Officer, Senior House Officer, Registrar, Senior Registrar and Consultant posts.

There are a lot of private GP services around in the London area that are becoming more popular. BUPA have private GP's. You can pay for a consultation with them even if you don't have BUPA health insurance. A lot of complementary therapy practices have GP's who work with them. The Wren Clinic in London being a good example. There are MediCentre's on the London stations that provide private GP services - walk in clinics that are popular.

I don't use my GP a lot and have not had cause to, but a few years ago now I did and he was absolutely hopeless and I walked out in disgust. A colleague of mine happened to tell me about a great GP that she had seen who worked for BUPA. I rang and got an appointment and payed myself, not having BUPA health insurance. I think I saw him a couple of times and he was great and helped me sort out my problem. The cost was not prohibitive by any means - I think at the time it was £60, but I got a 30 min and then a 15 min consultation for that. Well worth the cost over and above my NHS GP who gave me 5 mins worth of time and then did nothing.

Money well spent I would say.
 
For those wishing to object to the proposed Royal Charter for the College of Chiropractors, simply follow the procedure outlined in this link:
Formal applications for Charters are published, to allow other interested individuals or organisations to comment or to lodge counter-petitions. Because the process of Petitioning for a Charter is thus a public one, and can also be expensive in terms of the preparation of the formal documents, this Office encourages institutions to have taken soundings among other bodies who may have an interest, in order to minimise the risk of a counter-petition. Any proposal which is rendered controversial by a counter-petition is unlikely to succeed.

http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page45.asp


i'd imagine objecting is only open to citizens of the UK?


Good question. I'll contact the Privy Council about that and post its reply.
 
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Physiotherapist, regardless of the initials, it all stands for "Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery". I know some people abbreviate it differently. The graduate programmes still don't award their graduates "MD" degrees, and the fact that the graduates already had degrees on entry has little bearing on their training from them on.

I lived in the south east of England for 25 years. I know there are some private GPs about. Very, very few people use them. But the fact remains that people are not tied into the NHS system if they don't want to be, and have a bit of spare money. Best of both worlds, which the Merikans can't seem to get their heads around.

Rolfe.
 
I often advise people to stay away from chiropractors, and could bore you with some examples over the past 30 yrs, but prefer to bore you instead with what happened to me when I visited a chiropractor 20 yrs ago - and why I stopped.

In my early 20's, and after years of telling people (including my mother) to not "do it", I took a challenge from an acquaintance who is a chiropractor. I have had ongoing TMJ pain (including jaw deviation when opening, clenching, teeth cracking, and, over the last 15 years, crowns placed over cracked molars from the clenching) and pain in my shoulder joint, trapezius, sternocleidomastoid, and masseter muscles on one side of my body. Back when it first began, the docs didn't recommend anything for me. But this chiropractor would tell me from time to time that he could help me. After about a year of this, I said ok. I let him treat me for about a month - including neck "adjustments" and electrical muscle stim. After about two sessions, I had such freedom from pain - I commented, "I didn't realize how much pain I was in until it was removed." It felt sooooo good. I continued letting him "adjust" me for several months before I decided that, as good as I felt, I wasn't completely comfortable with having my neck snapped again and again.

A few years later, in grad school, I spent some time in a lab in a neurology department, and when I mentioned this experience to them I was told to never, ever, ever allow a chiropractor to adjust my neck for fear of stroke. And even though it had been years since I'd had an "adjustment", I was quite blue to know that I would never again experience that total freedom from my pain and stiffness in my jaw.

I now get an occaisonal massage, asking them to focus on the neck and upper back, but the nice effects are short-lived. The most recent massage I had was from a practicing chiropractor, and it was by far the best massage I've had in some time.

So, my experience tells me that the chiropractic treatment by the first chiropractor did something to alleviate my pain and stop my clenching for a while, even though the TMJ joint still deviated upon opening the jaw. I now think that there are a few good chiropractors out there, but that they are the minority. But even these chiropractors are playing with fire if they continue to adjust necks.

As for my continuing TMJ (and other joint) issues, I live with it. You learn to ignore it for the most part - impossible at times. I can often be caught rubbing that side of my face, or stretching my jaw muscles, or asking my beau to massage my neck on that side. Perhaps it's better to not get relief from it, if the relief is only temporary (!).

Ok - you can wake up now ...
 
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this has been an interesting thread.

i've gone from being "i don't care what they say coz some of them do good work" to "get rid of them except as a subset of physios, and then keep only the ones that aren't wearing tinfoil hats". God bless evidence (Ah merkins CAN do irony, albeit ham-handedly).

a forum FOR skeptics is perhaps the one place where i'm not a troll. <snif> i wuv you guys.
 
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I still have to say I love my chiropractor because he's not woo and he and his team give the best specialized massage-like treatment (Active Release Technique). He refers people to medical doctors, has been working with medical doctors in treating patients with frozen shoulder syndrome, has worked with people on soft tissue and other non-spine-cracking issues, and promotes a healthy lifestyle (plenty of veggies and fruits and moderate exercise) more than anything else. He's good enough for olympic athletes so he's good enough for me. :)
 
I still have to say I love my chiropractor because he's not woo and he and his team give the best specialized massage-like treatment (Active Release Technique).


In other words, you seem to be one of the lucky ones who has managed to find one of the 5-10% of chiropractors in the US who lean towards more rational treatment approaches. Indeed, it sounds like your chiropractor practices physiotherapy and not ‘chiropractic’.

I’m interested to know if you deliberately looked for a rational chiropractor and, if so, how did you know to do so?


i've gone from being "i don't care what they say coz some of them do good work" to "get rid of them except as a subset of physios, and then keep only the ones that aren't wearing tinfoil hats". God bless evidence


I suspect that many people would reach a similar conclusion if they were given access to accurate information about chiropractic.

For the benefit of any drive-by readers wanting to learn more, see here
http://www.ukskeptics.com/documents/spinal_manipulation_benefits_risks.pdf

and here:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=chiropractic.php
 
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I suspect that many people would reach a similar conclusion if they were given access to accurate information about chiropractic.

heheh. well obviously *i* would agree with that pretty much by definition.

that said, like zenotter, i have seen rational chiros that were very helpful for my particular chronic upper back problem, and i did outline in broad strokes how to tell 'em apart.
 
From the highly respected veteran chiropractor, Samuel Homola, in the January 2008 issue of Skeptical Enquirer:
It is generally agreed that chiropractic may be a useful approach in alleviating pain for a very limited set of disorders associated with the back or spine.

However, many skeptics are concerned that chiropractic is being applied to disorders for which it is an inappropriate intervention and for which solid evidence of its efficacy is lacking.

If this is the case, then several unfortunate consequences might result. Patients might be harmed by the treatment itself, they might waste their time and money, or they might be deterred from seeking effective treatments.

Skeptics fear that chiropractors and their representatives may often promise too much and create expectations that chiropractic can cure or heal medical problems for which it is ill suited.

More…
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-174102078.html
 
I lucked out with finding mine. I had gotten a referral to a woo-one after a car accident, but put off going there because I didn't feel like being "muscle-tested" with vials of whatnot. I went to the local Whole Foods and had a chair massage from a therapist I'd not seen there before. She was realllly, really good, and we started talking about physical therapies since the car accident had happened the month prior. She mentioned that she worked with a chiropractor who was really good and took various forms of insurance, and I later found that their office happened to be 15 minutes from my workplace. The rest is great history. :)

I made an appointment with the chiropractor, not ever having been to a chiropractor before, but since the chair massage helped me to move better than the physical therapy I was doing at a nearby hospital, I took a chance and went. I'm still glad I did. The specialized massage has helped immensely with my fibromyalgia spasms and muscle tightness, and I know I need to get in better shape since those will ease up if I do but the massage still gets out the deep tissue knots that regular sports massage can't even touch.

I did try the other guy out though, and learned that I was apparently low on selenium and molybdenum. It was kind of a weird experience, too. I'm all for natural approaches, but within reason, and the whole "take care of yourself by eating right and moving around a bit" has worked the best so far.
 
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Zenotter, thank you for your reply. That was, indeed, a lucky find. I’m glad it has helped you.

i'd imagine objecting is only open to citizens of the UK?

Zeus, I have just received a reply from the Privy Council and, having asked if contesting an application for a Royal Charter was confined to citizens of the UK, it would appear that anyone, anywhere, can contest an application - see answer (1) from the Privy Council below:

1. Representations may be made by anyone about the granting of a Royal Charter to this Office.

2. The formal application for Charters are published in the London Gazette.

[London Gazette: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/home.aspx?geotype=London ]

3. Representations about a Charter need to be made, in writing, to this Office.


So, for the benefit of drive-by readers, here are the details you need if you wish to counter-petition the UK College of Chiropractors' application for a Royal Charter...

Latest status of the application (petition):
5 June 2007 - Towards a Royal Charter: College Council attends House of Lords Reception

College Council members attended a reception organised by Baroness Jean Corston at the House of Lords today. Guests included key figures from the Commons and the Lords keen to hear more about the College and its pursuit of a Royal Charter. Baroness Corston welcomed those present and highlighted the importance of a united chiropractic profession. Tim Jay, College President, explained the value of a Charter to the public and profession. Small group discussions followed enabling MPs and Peers to ask questions of Council members. It was clear there is significant support for the chiropractic profession and the College's pursuit of the Royal Charter. The Council intends to approach the Privy Council later this year to re-open discussions.

http://www.colchiro.org.uk/default.aspx?m=39&mi=202&ms=0


Email contact for the counter-petitioning procedure given via this link:
Formal applications for Charters are published, to allow other interested individuals or organisations to comment or to lodge counter-petitions. Because the process of Petitioning for a Charter is thus a public one, and can also be expensive in terms of the preparation of the formal documents, this Office encourages institutions to have taken soundings among other bodies who may have an interest, in order to minimise the risk of a counter-petition. Any proposal which is rendered controversial by a counter-petition is unlikely to succeed.

http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page45.asp


As far as I know, a formal application has yet to be published in the London Gazette.
 
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As far as I know, a formal application has yet to be published in the London Gazette.


Is that for a petition or counter petition?


It’s for the petition (application) from the College of Chiropractors.

As I understand it, when it’s published in the London Gazette other interested individuals or organisations can then comment or lodge counter-petitions.

You have to wonder why the Privy Council doesn’t publish the petition on its website. It would be so much easier to find. Anyway, I’ll try to keep track of the College of Chiropractors’ progress with the petition and post any updates here.
 
Zenotter, thank you for your reply. That was, indeed, a lucky find. I’m glad it has helped you.

You're very welcome. I'm fortunate to be in such good care. Sad that the vast majority of chiropractors don't seem to be the same way.
 
Well worth viewing:

The Kinsinger Report on Chiropractic (approx. 42 mins)
http://ph-ms.ouhsc.edu/ah/rehab/kinsinger.wmv

This presentation was included in the curriculum of the course PHTH 7990 “Advanced Spinal Manipulation for Physical Therapy Students” for physical therapy students taught by Dave Johnson, PT, PhD, Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Rehabilitation Sciences, College of Allied Health, University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center (OUHSC). It was also included in the continuing education program “Spinal Manipulation: 5th Annual Update for Physical Therapists, Osteopathic Physicians, and Medical Doctors” sponsored by the Department of Rehabilitation Sciences, College of Allied Health, OUHSC.

Bill Kinsinger, MD, is past President of the Oklahoma Society of Anesthiologists, and since 1994 has been in private practice of obstetric anaesthesiology. Since 1990 he has conducted investigations and research of the chiropractic industry.

Dr Kinsinger is also associated with the Neck911 network, a volunteer organisation devoted to raising awareness of injuries associated with the practice of chiropractic:
http://www.neck911usa.com/
 

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