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China's first 'Good Samaritan'' Law

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to put this under "cultural differance", more like "residual primitivism", but okay. Another WTF moment is bolded :)
This is related to our other discussion on cultural differences.

Western culture is largely an individualist culture, meaning at least in part that the rights of the individual are more important than (or take precedence over) the rights of the collective. Thus, the idea that "it is better for ten guilty men to go free than to risk one innocent man being unfairly imprisoned."

Collectivist cultures look at it the opposite way...that the rights of the group take precedence over the rights of the individual. Thus, it is better to have some innocent people imprisoned, if it means having a greater probability of also imprisoning more guilty people.

Look at it this way. Assume that in cases where there is not enough evidence to be certain of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt", that 25% of those accused are innocent, and 75% guilty (I'm just pulling these numbers out of my butt, I have no idea what the actual numbers are, it is just an example). Under the western system, that means that for every 25 innocent people who escape imprisonment, there will be 75 criminals who likely are re-released back into society. From the collectivist perspective, that is entirely unacceptable; it is more important to ensure that the 75 guilty people are imprisoned.

Your response is "WTF"...yet the Chinese look at the U.S. in much the same way. How many people are there who are guilty -- and the police know they are guilty -- but they get off because there's not adequate evidence? Rapists, murderers, etc. To a collectivist society, that is absolutely freakin' insane.

Personally, I think that the 'answer', if there is one, lays somewhere in the middle. Many Western countries focus too excessively on protecting individual rights, to the point where serious offenders can get off on technicalities, and where police are sometimes severely restricted in their ability to gather evidence -- all in the name of protecting individual freedoms. Meanwhile, countries like China are on the opposite end of the scale, having way too much power to punish and imprison people even without adequate evidence.

But keep in mind that when it comes to reforming Chinese law, its not just an issue of what the gov't wants...there are significant cultural influences, as well. When the Chinese gov't introduced the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing, Western media trumpeted it as a triumph...while in China, there were major protests as Chinese feared that it would mean many more criminals being released into society.
 
This is related to our other discussion on cultural differences.

Western culture is largely an individualist culture, meaning at least in part that the rights of the individual are more important than (or take precedence over) the rights of the collective. Thus, the idea that "it is better for ten guilty men to go free than to risk one innocent man being unfairly imprisoned."

Collectivist cultures look at it the opposite way...that the rights of the group take precedence over the rights of the individual. Thus, it is better to have some innocent people imprisoned, if it means having a greater probability of also imprisoning more guilty people.

Look at it this way. Assume that in cases where there is not enough evidence to be certain of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt", that 25% of those accused are innocent, and 75% guilty (I'm just pulling these numbers out of my butt, I have no idea what the actual numbers are, it is just an example). Under the western system, that means that for every 25 innocent people who escape imprisonment, there will be 75 criminals who likely are re-released back into society. From the collectivist perspective, that is entirely unacceptable; it is more important to ensure that the 75 guilty people are imprisoned.

Your response is "WTF"...yet the Chinese look at the U.S. in much the same way. How many people are there who are guilty -- and the police know they are guilty -- but they get off because there's not adequate evidence? Rapists, murderers, etc. To a collectivist society, that is absolutely freakin' insane.

Fun fact: the period and region which saw the greatest advances in human history since development of agriculture coincides perfectly with the shift in attitude towards the rights of individuals as opposed to society. The same attitude as Chinese have now was quite common in the West until around 17th century - hence my assesment of "residual primitivism". There is nothing new or unique about these aspects of Chinese culture, and the results they give are also quite well understood.

Personally, I think that the 'answer', if there is one, lays somewhere in the middle. Many Western countries focus too excessively on protecting individual rights, to the point where serious offenders can get off on technicalities, and where police are sometimes severely restricted in their ability to gather evidence -- all in the name of protecting individual freedoms. Meanwhile, countries like China are on the opposite end of the scale, having way too much power to punish and imprison people even without adequate evidence.

I agree with you that there is too much focus on personal rights at times in the West, although these concerns exist for precisely the same reason as to why Chinese government is so keen to keep them. See next part of the reply for that.

But keep in mind that when it comes to reforming Chinese law, its not just an issue of what the gov't wants...there are significant cultural influences, as well. When the Chinese gov't introduced the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing, Western media trumpeted it as a triumph...while in China, there were major protests as Chinese feared that it would mean many more criminals being released into society.

The cultural influences are also heavily influenced by the Chinese government and the Party, whose focus is primarily to remain in power (with becoming a major world power being a close second). They do a remarkable job at explaining how good it is for everyone that they rule them the way they do and manage to direct criticism at lower branches, rather than the top. To this end they also push forward the ideas you support, that the society is better off punishing people for crimes they didn't do, if it keeps more people who do commit crimes off the streets. The logic is severely flawed (for every innocent man you imprison a guilty man walks away free anyway). As I stated in the earlier thread, the only thing a collectivist culture is good at is maintaining the people in power, in power. This is a good example of that.

There we go, debating Chinese culture again. I really wanted to avoid it. :o

Anyway, does China offer rewards for testimonies in other cases, or is this another first? I'm interested in their legal practices :)

McHrozni
 
Anyway, does China offer rewards for testimonies in other cases, or is this another first? I'm interested in their legal practices :)

McHrozni
It's not so much an issue of "what China does" as of "what different provinces and municipalities do". There are no national laws whatsoever to reward people for testimonies; but on a local level, different governments may have different rules. Some municipalities may offer rewards for revealing government corruption...while other municipalities may have laws that punish those who publicly reveal corruption, because they "destabilize the government" (this doesn't mean they shouldn't reveal it, but that they should report it to police or other gov't officials).

People outside of China tend to see it as some sort of hegemonic entity, with strong centralized gov't control over everything. The truth is very different. The country is simply too freakin' big for any centralized gov't to effectively monitor what's going on elsewhere; so regional governments (provincial, municipal, etc.) may have significant power in their own right (but have to adhere to general policies dictated by the national government).

The cities of Beijing, Shanghai, and Chongqing are essentially like Washington, D.C....they are not under the control of the province they reside in, they are considered their own districts with powers equal to that of a provincial-level government. (Chongqing, although most westerners have never heard of it, is China's largest mega-city, with a population that equals the entire population of Canada). Then there are "autonomous regions", areas that likewise are largely independent of provincial leadership (and may in fact span several provinces); autonomous zones are usually established on ethnic terms, to protect or provide greater autonomy for ethnic minority groups in China.

So...you have provinces, cities, districts, and autonomous zones...all with leaders who can pass their own local laws and policies with a fair degree of independence. However, the national gov't has the right to revoke or change those laws, if it wants to do so.

In Shenzhen, this year, the gov't passed a law that made it illegal for migrant workers to hold public protests over unpaid wages (a huge problem, as millions of migrant workers had been denied payment by unscrupulous construction companies); the gov't wanted to address their concerns, but wanted it kept quiet. However, the law caused a veritable ****-storm of objections from Shenzhen citizens, and across China...so the national gov't stepped in and struck down that law.

Legal prosecution can follow a similar pattern...where people are tried locally first, but may face significant miscarriages of justice due to local corruption and abuse of power; in such cases, verdicts can be appealed to Beijing, and in many cases are overturned (Beijing's courts do have a reputation for being much more fair and operating according to the rule of law than do many other courts in China...with the exception of political cases). The power of the media is crucial in this regard, as they are often the ones who bring such abuses to light (and even the major state-run media is very active in exposing such abuses and scandals).

So China's really a major hodge-podge of different rules, laws, and regulations, depending where you live...and consistency of enforcement will vary significantly, also.
 
Okay, so some might and it's rather difficult to get a full picture. :)

One other thing I have noticed is the high levels of trust you have in the central authorities in Bejing. This is not unique to you, I have seen similar in various news reports from China, about people saying what the government should do for them, yet are far more critical of local authorities. This is partially because the local governments aminister them more, and because the central government acts as their saviour from them.

It's quite nasty, tzarist Russia used the same technique - local nobles were hated, but the tzar was always there above them, caring* for the little man.

*read: doing a good job at pretending to care

Anyway, another question - is the only way to appeal a verdict of a lower court to actually travel to Bejing? It seems to me as if it is, but I need to ask.

McHrozni
 
Okay, so some might and it's rather difficult to get a full picture. :)

One other thing I have noticed is the high levels of trust you have in the central authorities in Bejing. This is not unique to you, I have seen similar in various news reports from China, about people saying what the government should do for them, yet are far more critical of local authorities. This is partially because the local governments aminister them more, and because the central government acts as their saviour from them.

It's quite nasty, tzarist Russia used the same technique - local nobles were hated, but the tzar was always there above them, caring* for the little man.

*read: doing a good job at pretending to care

Anyway, another question - is the only way to appeal a verdict of a lower court to actually travel to Bejing? It seems to me as if it is, but I need to ask.

McHrozni
When it comes to non-political issues, the central authority in Beijing is fairly reliable; rulings tend to be based on rule of law, rather than on relationships, or being affected by corruption. I wouldn't say I have a high level of trust...it is relative. I'd trust the Beijing courts more than most other courts in China; but not as much as I would Canadian courts.

Pretty much like the West, there are various levels, and you generally have to go through each level. So you'd do a local court, then a provincial court, then the national courts in Beijing. And yes, you'd have to go there (just as you'd have to show up in a courtroom in the U.S. if you were appealing a verdict). Generally, the gov't will cover costs (provide lawyer and cover room/board costs) if your case is felt to have merit, but you can't afford it yourself.

I'm sorry, McHrozni, but an awful lot of your comments seem to be from the perspective of a very black-and-white world. Like the "high level of trust in Beijing courts" thing. Compared to other courts in China, yes, I have a higher level of trust (with the exception, as I said, of political cases); that doesn't mean I have a 'high' level of trust.

Part of the reason for having more trust in Beijing authorities is quite pragmatic...they're watched and monitored by both Chinese and foreign media far more closely than are smaller, regional courts. Abuses and bad verdicts will be revealed much more quickly, which would in turn erode the Chinese peoples' trust in those courts.

Consider back home...if a newspaper report revealed that a local mayor of a city, or a local judge, was caught in a corrupt act...it wouldn't bring down the government, nor the justice system. But if the President, or a member of the Supreme Court, were caught doing the same thing, it'd be a much, much bigger scandal, one that could have very serious repercussions for the entire system.

When it comes to political cases, it is different. Those are generally done behind closed doors, with little or no media access allowed, and verdicts often pre-determined. But even in those cases, the gov't is slowly losing the battle for control, as Chinese people become more and more informed about what is going on.

Case in point...a famous Chinese artist, Ai Weiwei, has recently been targeted by the authorities for criticizing the gov't, and they've detained him, and brought all sorts of charges against him to try to harass him. Most recently, some nude photos he had taken were declared to be 'pornographic', and he was charged with producing pornography (still illegal in China); the news hit the internet immediately, and literally millions of Chinese started protesting online, and posting their own nude photos. The gov't has had to back down as a result.

China is just about the least black-and-white nation on the planet...it is so huge, and has so much diversity (in how much control the local gov't exercises, in what laws are in effect, in how reliable the courts are, in the levels of corruption, etc.) that the only way to understand it would really be think of it as many different countries/territories, each with their own traits.

Another good example of this is the gov't attitude towards religion. In some parts of China, any illegal religious activity will be squashed quite ruthlessly; in other parts of China, illegal religious groups operate openly and with impunity, with little or no gov't action taken away from them. Thus, 'house churches' (unregistered Christian gatherings, which are illegal under Chinese law) with only 10 people may be shut down in one part of China; while another unregistered church with hundreds of members may meet openly every week in another part of China, with no action taken whatsoever.

When I talk about different parts of China, or about the national gov't, I'm generally discussing them relative to each other...not in comparison with Canada (since, due to the widely differing policies and practices, such a comparison is inevitably pointless), or any other country.

In addition, my perspective on China today is generally based on a comparison of China today, with China 20 years ago (when I first came here); because to understand where China is today, you need to understand where its come from, and just how much positive change has taken place. Again, comparisons with other countries, based only on "how both countries are at this point in time", are largely useless, except to engage in an ego trip about "how much better we are than them."

A better point of comparison would be how long it took the U.S. (a country founded on principles of democracy, freedom, and equality) to address issues of slavery, women's rights, racial equality, etc. A process that took well over a century. By comparison, the pace of change in China has been incredibly fast, accomplishing significant improvements in freedom and equality in a much shorter period of time.
 
I think the issue is also in that my comments sometimes give an impression of outright criticism even when none is intended. It's a common problem for me. I understand that laws and upholding of laws in China are quite inconsistent as an understandable result of decentralisation. Inconsistency is bad, although decentralization is not.

The high level of trust thing however came from this:

In Shenzhen, this year, the gov't passed a law that made it illegal for migrant workers to hold public protests over unpaid wages (a huge problem, as millions of migrant workers had been denied payment by unscrupulous construction companies); the gov't wanted to address their concerns, but wanted it kept quiet.

It's a very brave thing to say: the government was doing everything to help these people, it just didn't want them to make the issue visible - it didn't want their help - and it was using it's muscles to stop them. I don't buy it, and I doubt many would. I realize this is about a local authority, not Bejing, but it still shows to me a level of trust in authorities they never should have. You trust Bejing even more, because it's objectively a lot better.

A better point of comparison would be how long it took the U.S. (a country founded on principles of democracy, freedom, and equality) to address issues of slavery, women's rights, racial equality, etc. A process that took well over a century. By comparison, the pace of change in China has been incredibly fast, accomplishing significant improvements in freedom and equality in a much shorter period of time.

No, this would be even more pointless. First of all, changes in the modern world are much, much faster than in the 18th or 19th century. Secondly, in many of the said rights, US was at the forefront of the world changes, which naturally made changes slower. It's logical that the pace of changes will be much faster if you have working models all over the world, with people seeing the changes have an obvious positive effect on their lives and you also have a bunch of countries pressuring you to make those changes than if you face the exact opposite.

McHrozni
 
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I may get this wrong, but it seems obvious to me that a collectivist society would embrace the idea of protecting first aiders from legal problems in order to encourage help in general.
I wonder what have held them back so far?
Does it have something to do with that village breed "family only" loyalty I have read of?
 
Look at it this way. Assume that in cases where there is not enough evidence to be certain of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt", that 25% of those accused are innocent, and 75% guilty (I'm just pulling these numbers out of my butt, I have no idea what the actual numbers are, it is just an example). Under the western system, that means that for every 25 innocent people who escape imprisonment, there will be 75 criminals who likely are re-released back into society. From the collectivist perspective, that is entirely unacceptable; it is more important to ensure that the 75 guilty people are imprisoned.

But we are not talking about imprisoning 25 innocent people, we are talking about executing 25 innocent people. They really find that acceptable or tolerable?


ETA: Am I correct in assuming that if an innocent person is executed and evidence of his innocence is later discovered, then it is not made public for fear of destabilizing the government or at least causing people to lose faith in the justice system?
 
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I may get this wrong, but it seems obvious to me that a collectivist society would embrace the idea of protecting first aiders from legal problems in order to encourage help in general.
I wonder what have held them back so far?
Does it have something to do with that village breed "family only" loyalty I have read of?

It takes time to pass such laws. The issue may not have been well an issue for the Chinese until now.
 

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