China

[dudalb]

I don't like authoratarian dictatorships, period, and China certainly qualafies there.

 

[dudalb]

That may eventually be a matter of concern. So far, however, China is still quite weak, militarily.



In these areas, China has the "advantage" of not being too preoccupied with human rights.



I have been heavily involved in transferring production to China. Yes, they are quite eager to avoid just being a source of cheap labor. However, it is quite possible to set up production in China and make it profitable. If you make a fuzz about it, the Chinese authorities will try to crack down on copy production.



A basic problem is that the idea of intellectual property has so far not gained much traction in China. I think that will happen when China begins to have it's own intellectual properties.



The latter is closest to the truth. China has dragged more than half a billion people out of poverty during the last few decades. Some of the methods have been rather ham-fisted, but in general, the population appreciates the effort.

Hans

Gee, sounds like what they said about Joe Stalin
Just a varaition on the old "But he made the trains runs on time" and I, frankly have no use for these kind of apologists.

 

[Venom]

Plenty of countries eat dogs.

Yes and where I'm from they do(did) too.

But the conditions they keep the animals in in those wet markets is appalling.

 

[The Atheist]

Maybe you should visit us. Just because Trump has a gaslight propaganda campaign doesn't mean people are afraid of China.

The people being scared of China long predate Trump's presidency.

To some degree, I think China should be feared. They're dangerous imperialist nutters. Their recent history suggests at least a huge amount of caution.

Why are they hacking and interfering with tertiary institutions across NZ and Australia (and many other countries)? Why are they using their "soft" power by helping "former" members of Chinese intelligence apparatus obtain roles of importance across the world?

I'd be prepared to give them a break if they showed signs of change, but I remember Tienanmen Square, along with atrocities back to Mao and it's not letting up in multiple parts of the country.

I'm quite happy for them to play soldiers in the SC Sea, but their projection of power into areas they perceive as "not under our control" is disturbing and needs close watching. What they did the other day with the anti-Australian Tweet was appalling and unbelievably hypocritical. They lie, cheat and throw their weight around just like other superpowers do and have.

Right now, along with wiping out islam, they're indulging in re-writing history on Genghis Khan.

 

[cullennz]

The people being scared of China long predate Trump's presidency.

To some degree, I think China should be feared. They're dangerous imperialist nutters. Their recent history suggests at least a huge amount of caution.

Why are they hacking and interfering with tertiary institutions across NZ and Australia (and many other countries)? Why are they using their "soft" power by helping "former" members of Chinese intelligence apparatus obtain roles of importance across the world?

I'd be prepared to give them a break if they showed signs of change, but I remember Tienanmen Square, along with atrocities back to Mao and it's not letting up in multiple parts of the country.

I'm quite happy for them to play soldiers in the SC Sea, but their projection of power into areas they perceive as "not under our control" is disturbing and needs close watching. What they did the other day with the anti-Australian Tweet was appalling and unbelievably hypocritical. They lie, cheat and throw their weight around just like other superpowers do and have.

Right now, along with wiping out islam, they're indulging in re-writing history on Genghis Khan.

Think you might be confusing scared with paranoid tbh.

I agree the offending Aussie propaganda thing was a bit OTT, but then so was the US's "China virus" thing.

Edit: Should also tack on they are hardly taking over unis

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I live here TA, and no, people are not afraid of China anymore than they are afraid of the nebulous deep state.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

There was a guy in New Zealand who shot up a couple of mosques because he believed in some threat or another. Would you say New Zealanders are afraid of Muslims?

It would be rather stupid for me to say, people in New Zealand seem pretty scared of Muslims, in my experience. I read it in a magazine so I know.




BTW, we met a gent in New Zealand years back who gave us a ride, we were hitch-hiking. He said he reckoned if it weren't for us yanks they'd be speaking Japanese.

 

[cullennz]

I live here TA, and no, people are not afraid of China anymore than they are afraid of the nebulous deep state.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

There was a guy in New Zealand who shot up a couple of mosques because he believed in some threat or another. Would you say New Zealanders are afraid of Muslims?

It would be rather stupid for me to say, people in New Zealand seem pretty scared of Muslims, in my experience. I read it in a magazine so I know.




BTW, we met a gent in New Zealand years back who gave us a ride, we were hitch-hiking. He said he reckoned if it weren't for us yanks they'd be speaking Japanese.

We would be eating some pretty awesome food though.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Not the worst Tori Amos song, to be sure, but far from the best, either.

 

[The Atheist]

Think you might be confusing scared with paranoid tbh.

Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...-influence-tests-academic-freedom-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110861244/chinese-institute-expands-influence-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ad3a3c-b9f9-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html

I agree the offending Aussie propaganda thing was a bit OTT, but then so was the US's "China virus" thing.

The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/australia-china-trade-disputes-in-2020.html

Edit: Should also tack on they are hardly taking over unis

Shouldn't have bothered with the edit, because "influence" is nothing to do with "taking over". When someone suggests the latter you can post that again.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.[/QUOTE

Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work.

I didn't say it was a majority, I just refuted your original point (that you confirm in the first sentence quoted above) which was: "I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China."

Now you say you are aware of some people that do, so maybe you could decide which you actually believe.

 

[Orphia Nay]

China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.

China is burdened by its past of being the poor nation providing cheap goods for high-income countries.

Now, it's using education and technology to develop its Belt and Road initiative {Wikipedia} to connect Eurasia and allow easier transport of goods, and less poverty for itself and other countries.

 

[Elagabalus]

China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.

IOW, Chicom, CCP. deep state, will try to get Briben elected so they can rule the world with their pedo/satanist cohorts.

 

[cullennz]

Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...-influence-tests-academic-freedom-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110861244/chinese-institute-expands-influence-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ad3a3c-b9f9-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html



The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/australia-china-trade-disputes-in-2020.html



Shouldn't have bothered with the edit, because "influence" is nothing to do with "taking over". When someone suggests the latter you can post that again.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work.

I didn't say it was a majority, I just refuted your original point (that you confirm in the first sentence quoted above) which was: "I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China."

Now you say you are aware of some people that do, so maybe you could decide which you actually believe.

Atheist. I am not denying that the current Chinese international relationship policy is to run/own as much **** as possible to have major influence.

But this is hardly a new concept when it comes to countries like ours.

The US is the same with its past international smash and grab, same as the UK years ago.

How many of our banks and supermarkets (in the supermarket case with their duopoly) are raking in our cash as they are owned by Aussies?

At least **** tends to get done rather than farting round.

 

[The Atheist]

The US is the same with its past international smash and grab, same as the UK years ago.

How many of our banks and supermarkets (in the supermarket case with their duopoly) are raking in our cash as they are owned by Aussies?

I'm not happy about any of that - it is one of the problems of being a pimple in the ocean on the arse of the planet, but UK, USA & Aussie don't go around assaulting MPs on Parliament grounds, or use trade embargoes and illegal charges on imports on political grounds.

They don't demand that routes they travel on have all protests hidden, either.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I'm not happy about any of that - it is one of the problems of being a pimple in the ocean on the arse of the planet, but UK, USA & Aussie don't go around assaulting MPs on Parliament grounds, or use trade embargoes and illegal charges on imports on political grounds.

US and Aussie use tariffs on China, and vice versa. Happens all the time.

They don't demand that routes they travel on have all protests hidden, either.

Protests in Europe haven't been hidden, as an example.

Where were you thinking of?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...-influence-tests-academic-freedom-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110861244/chinese-institute-expands-influence-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ad3a3c-b9f9-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html

The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/australia-china-trade-disputes-in-2020.html

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work....

Yeah right, you know all about Americans from reading the papers.

And you think I'm the one that doesn't get out enough.

 

[cullennz]

It wasn't that long ago our current govt were going on about the US having too much control over the GCSB.....

...While in the past running the GCSB

 

[cullennz]

And now running the GCSB

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When I went to the Dominican Republic years ago, in my early 20s, people told me it was dangerous. It wasn't, they'd had a revolution a full decade earlier. And everyone in Central America supposedly hated Americans. They didn't. People I met who were headed to FL were worried about all the crime. There wasn't any particular crime wave going on. Traveling around Ecuador (JREF Galapagos Islands side trip I took on my own) people said it was dangerous, crime everywhere. There wasn't.

I have run into trouble in more than one country, none of which anyone warned me about. Most of the time people are people everywhere you go. Bottom line though, you never see what a country or its people are like unless you go there.

 

[cullennz]

When I went to the Dominican Republic years ago, in my early 20s, people told me it was dangerous. It wasn't, they'd had a revolution a full decade earlier. And everyone in Central America supposedly hated Americans. They didn't. People I met who were headed to FL were worried about all the crime. There wasn't any particular crime wave going on. Traveling around Ecuador (JREF Galapagos Islands side trip I took on my own) people said it was dangerous, crime everywhere. There wasn't.

I have run into trouble in more than one country, none of which anyone warned me about. Most of the time people are people everywhere you go. Bottom line though, you never see what a country or its people are like unless you go there.

Agree totally.

There might be certain timings where you might want to take odd things into consideration depending on country, but usually everything will be fine.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Political propaganda is not what most people experience in their lives. It's always something they have a nebulous concept of. Trump sycophants might rant and rave about China or librul commies but they are only a small number relative to most people. For example, Trump tried to make everyone believe there were riots all over Seattle. The protests affected a couple square blocks. Only people who spent no time in Seattle believed that crap.

The news media can make something small like that look huge. They make it sound like there are millions who believe the stuff the paper reports about when in reality there might be a couple thousand and more often than not it's a couple hundred.

Yes, a lot of people voted for Trump. That's doesn't make the few who make the papers, examples of what all the rest are like.