China

[Orphia Nay]

We don't seem to have a thread on China.

People in the USA, and the older generation seem pretty scared of China, in my experience.

Yet I know people who visit there regularly, or have visited there, or live there, and they've loved it.

Is this an East/West thing that is outdated?

I have a theory that the more people in high-income countries talk as if they're scared, the more China might want to impose tariffs (for example) on the USA or UK or Australia.

Kind of like the fear reaps fear, though there should be no reason for fear.

China might be afraid the US is so afraid they will harm them, and vice versa.

Can't we all get along?

Happy Christmas, BTW.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.

 

[cullennz]

Have no issue with China, but if it helps, at least from a NZ point of view, it tends to be the left of politics that a scared and go on about them.

Work with Chinese people. All seem cool. One was a bit defensive when talking their history, but probably my fault for mentioning it.

 

[Venom]

I don't like the way they treat cats and dogs.

I don't like their atrocious record on human rights and the way they hand out death sentences and do executions.

As a Southeast Asian I sort of understand how so much of the population in these countries are attracted to strongmen and dictators---seems to be just what they're used to. But China's modern development is special. It's a peg short of superpower, and it still behaves like a forgettable third-rate dictatorship in many ways.

 

[cullennz]

Plenty of countries eat dogs.


Plenty of countries won't eat pigs for some stupid religious reason


Personally think you are doing a disservice saying China isn't a superpower. When you have a country like the US owing you 1.17 trillion dollars, you could probably claim to have a bit of clout.

Not that the US will probably bother paying it back.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.

Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China.

Take a short look at Skeptical Community and you'll find a nice pocket of Sinophobes.

I don't like their atrocious record on human rights and the way they hand out death sentences and do executions.

Not just their record, the arrogance with which they do it is astonishing. They're aware of their economic clout and use it willingly and corruptly.

I'm not even going to bother with their record on women's rights, but if you can find a woman in the CCP leadership let me know.

It's a peg short of superpower, and it still behaves like a forgettable third-rate dictatorship in many ways.

Exactly that.

 

[Shadowdweller]

China is filled with dirty, nasty commies that secretly control all the (liberal) politicians we don't like. And are the real ones trying to hack American elections and put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, despite what all the treasonous intelligence agencies say. Except when it comes to trade deals, then they're good people.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Plenty of countries eat dogs.





Plenty of countries won't eat pigs for some stupid religious reason





Personally think you are doing a disservice saying China isn't a superpower. When you have a country like the US owing you 1.17 trillion dollars, you could probably claim to have a bit of clout.



Not that the US will probably bother paying it back.

We have been, are currently, and will continue to pay the full amount due on every U.S. Treasury bond that matures.

There is no special "we don't actually pay these back" stack of bonds and banks don't join in some act of nationalist solidarity and look the other way when a creditor stiffs a bank that happens to be foreign.

 

[dann]

Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China.

Take a short look at Skeptical Community and you'll find a nice pocket of Sinophobes.

Saying that a country or a group of people is awfully dangerous is not necessarily indicative of fear: See Cuba or Antifa.

Not just their record, the arrogance with which they do it is astonishing. They're aware of their economic clout and use it willingly and corruptly.

I'm not even going to bother with their record on women's rights, but if you can find a woman in the CCP leadership let me know.

Women appear to be a minority, but there are some women: 19th Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party: Members (Wikipedia)
"♀ Indicates that the individual is female."

 

[MRC_Hans]

China is a fantastic country, but it is also scary in many ways.
However, let me say that any statement about China shorter than an entire book is bound to be oversimplified. It is a huge and diverse country with several thousand years of history.

Hans

 

[Bikewer]

That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.
They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity....

Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.

And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.

 

[Arcade22]

Can't we all get along?

You should see the way the Chinese ambassador to Sweden acts. Smug self-righteous chauvinist is a very accurate description of how he has behaved in a professional capacity, with the apparent blessing of his employers. It's no wonder that Swedish public opinion on China has dropped so much recently when their chief apologist only makes their country come off even worse.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.

Compared to how other superpowers (of their time) came to be superpowers the Chinese seem about on par.

 

[Modified]

Plenty of countries eat dogs.

They don't eat many in China - estimated at about one per 100 people per year, compared to one per 250 people per year in the US. It's only popular in a very small region of China.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.
They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity....

Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.
And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.

Companies operating in China with such agreements...er...agreed to those terms.

That isn't some magical "gotcha" that was invisible at signing by using disappearing-reappearing ink.

That was the deal. They agreed to it.

Let's also recall that before Beijing started to assert itself this way with a "what's in it for us?" policy, its not like China was an ideal model of benevolent corporate responsibility.

 

[Doubt]

China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.

 

[trustbutverify]

I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.

??

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China....

Maybe you should visit us. Just because Trump has a gaslight propaganda campaign doesn't mean people are afraid of China.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

China is filled with dirty, nasty commies that secretly control all the (liberal) politicians we don't like. And are the real ones trying to hack American elections and put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, despite what all the treasonous intelligence agencies say. Except when it comes to trade deals, then they're good people.

 

[MRC_Hans]

That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.

That may eventually be a matter of concern. So far, however, China is still quite weak, militarily.

They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity...

In these areas, China has the "advantage" of not being too preoccupied with human rights.

Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.

I have been heavily involved in transferring production to China. Yes, they are quite eager to avoid just being a source of cheap labor. However, it is quite possible to set up production in China and make it profitable. If you make a fuzz about it, the Chinese authorities will try to crack down on copy production.

And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies..

A basic problem is that the idea of intellectual property has so far not gained much traction in China. I think that will happen when China begins to have it's own intellectual properties.

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.

The latter is closest to the truth. China has dragged more than half a billion people out of poverty during the last few decades. Some of the methods have been rather ham-fisted, but in general, the population appreciates the effort.

Hans