Children held at Guantanamo Bay

[Skeptical Greg]

What do you do with a kid who has been trained as a terrorist? I am curious to know what alternatives those who deplore their detainment suggest.

I have alluded to this in my obligatory sarcastic manner a couple of times..

It has been avoided assiduously..

Perhaps they entertain some idea about giving them a box lunch, a rail pass and dropping them off on a corner in Miami.

 

[Tmy]

Wasnt it about a week or so ago there were these stories about children being freed from Saddams jail, and wasnt that all swell n great!!! Well how do we know what them kids did! maybe they were jailed for a reason!

I dont mind the US cathing theses kids, but i am bothered by this conveinent "enemy combatant" tag. It's juts a convenient tool for the goverment to sidestep the Geneva conevention while expecting our eneimes to follow the rules.

Does the Gen Con say anthing about minors.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.....................................

Does the Gen Con say anthing about minors.

If you come up with anything make sure you fill Ashcroft in on it..

P.S..

If those kids that were let out of jail in Iraq, are anything like American kids; if they deserved to be in jail, there's a pretty good chance they will find their way back...

 

[The Fool]

Fool, I hope you have noticed that no one here is cheering about the children being held at Gitmo.


ok, with the posting of the cartoons, would you be happier if I used the word "laughing at" instead of "cheering about"?



I also find it strange that on the one hand, we have people complaining about the fact we took prisoners in Afghanistan and brought them to Gitmo, and label the camp in their media articles with adjectives such as "brutal" and "harsh" and so on.


not only prisoners from Afghanistan are held at gitmo, did you know this? one of our citizens was kidnapped from Pakistan....
As to brutal and harsh, well maybe if you lived in a cage for a while you may consider these words appropriate.


Are you guys happy or unhappy we have actually released some of the prisoners? Make up your minds.

I will be happy when you release the Australians your Army kidnapped.


All this complaining reminds me of some street punk going on a killing spree and then blaming society for making him do it. And on top of that, saying the prison system is brutal and harsh and how dare they lock him up!


Gitmo is not a prison system, It is a place where abductees are held. If I was doing this instead of your army (deciding someone was a terrorist and holding them) it would be a crime scene... And guess what!!! Under the laws of the USA or Australia You can't lock up a "street punk" without trial as you do to the people you hold at gitmo. Your analogy is perfect for proving my point. .....Nobody is "blaming society" or claiming that the people held at gitmo are innocent...who knows? they are not being tried....


These are the scum who brought down the World Trade Center folks. Maybe you need to watch the video again.


So a wink and a nod from the US army is good enough to prove a persons guilt? You could save a lot of money on judges and courts if you just used this system. Is the USA a democracy with a rule of law or a military Junta where the army can arrest and detain whoever it likes for as long as it likes? I've seen the damn video Luke....point me out the bit that lists those responsible. Maybe you need to apply for the million if you can figure out who did it from watching the crime....



And these scum know where the rest of the scum who haven't been caught yet are. I suppose we could rush the process and just beat the information we need out of them. Would that be quick enough for ya?

perfect.....you now know what information they hold, your psycic powers are increasing.

Lastly, I'll say this only one more time. I don't care how long you hold them to determine if they are guilty or innocent, i don't care what punishment you dish out. Just do it within your own laws or give us back our citizens and let us do it within our laws....

Don't just kidnap people and hold them as political prisoners without trial....why is that so hard for people to get thier head around????

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by The Fool
ok, with the posting of the cartoons, would you be happier if I used the word "laughing at" instead of "cheering about"?

The cartoons were about the adult prisoners, IIRC. Nothing about child prisoners. Nobody is laughing or cheering. I am not happy about it at all, Fool.

not only prisoners from Afghanistan are held at gitmo, did you know this? one of our citizens was kidnapped from Pakistan....
As to brutal and harsh, well maybe if you lived in a cage for a while you may consider these words appropriate.

You have highlighted the exact nature of the problem. Al Queda has no borders. They are not a nation. They are a terrorist group. We are at war with them. The rules of engagement in these situations is not the same as for guys who hold up liquor stores and their right to a speedy trial.

I will be happy when you release the Australians your Army kidnapped.

Do you not believe these fellas are members of Al Queda? Do you think they are accidental tourists? And I said before that if Australia took some Americans who belonged to a group that blew up the Sydney Opera House to a remote island camp, you wouldn't hear me complaining.

Gitmo is not a prison system, It is a place where abductees are held. If I was doing this instead of your army (deciding someone was a terrorist and holding them) it would be a crime scene... And guess what!!! Under the laws of the USA or Australia You can't lock up a "street punk" without trial as you do to the people you hold at gitmo. Your analogy is perfect for proving my point. .....Nobody is "blaming society" or claiming that the people held at gitmo are innocent...who knows? they are not being tried....

Again. The rules for terrorists are not the same as for street punks. My analogy was about the fact that they use the same complaints.

And does it make a difference if they are interred in Gitmo or Afhganistan? Do you have a problem with our internment camps in Iraq?

So a wink and a nod from the US army is good enough to prove a persons guilt? You could save a lot of money on judges and courts if you just used this system. Is the USA a democracy with a rule of law or a military Junta where the army can arrest and detain whoever it likes for as long as it likes? I've seen the damn video Luke....point me out the bit that lists those responsible. Maybe you need to apply for the million if you can figure out who did it from watching the crime....

You don't believe Al Queda is responsible for the WTC attack?

Do the POWs in Iraq need a trial before we can encamp them?

perfect.....you now know what information they hold, your psycic powers are increasing.

That is my point. We don't know what information they hold. But it is reasonable to assume that a member of an organization will have knowledge about other members of that organization who are still at large.

Lastly, I'll say this only one more time. I don't care how long you hold them to determine if they are guilty or innocent, i don't care what punishment you dish out. Just do it within your own laws or give us back our citizens and let us do it within our laws...

Don't just kidnap people and hold them as political prisoners without trial....why is that so hard for people to get thier head around????

You are confusing civil law with the laws of war.

 

[Guest]

Fool, I'm not trying to antagonize you. I hope you understand that. I'm not some cold-hearted person who doesn't care that some kids are being held in a prison camp. I care a lot. But most of my concern is about the source of the problem. The people who made them what they are.

I don't know if you believe these kids are trained killers or not. There really is no way to know for sure. The data is not available to the public, apparently. I am putting some degree of faith that my country wouldn't take these measures without good cause, and is providing them the best care possible under the circumstances. A lot of that faith is based on my own experiences in the U.S. military. And I have faith that sooner or later, the information will come out.

 

[The Fool]

Fool, I'm not trying to antagonize you. I hope you understand that. I'm not some cold-hearted person who doesn't care that some kids are being held in a prison camp. I care a lot. But most of my concern is about the source of the problem. The people who made them what they are.

I don't know if you believe these kids are trained killers or not. There really is no way to know for sure. The data is not available to the public, apparently. I am putting some degree of faith that my country wouldn't take these measures without good cause, and is providing them the best care possible under the circumstances. A lot of that faith is based on my own experiences in the U.S. military. And I have faith that sooner or later, the information will come out.

Luke, i know you're not trying to be antagonistic. I'm not trying to be stroppy either but too many people are happy to accept that everyone held at gitmo is Al Qaeda, simply on the say of the US army. I have seen and read a lot about one of them (one of the 2 Australians), he is a young confused man....I doubt if Osama would have been interested in him. He has found God and fought in Bosnia alongside the Bosnian Muslims (he was a goody in that war). When that war ended he drifted to Afghanistan to Join the Taliban Army, Not Al Qaeda. There Is no evidence available to support linking him to Al Qaeda, the US army only winks and says "we know stuff" well tough. I'm not impressed with what the US army thinks it knows, they are soldiers not Judges. Unless these people are POW (which the army says they are not) the army has no right to hold them, they should be handed over to civil authorities.

Luke, If your Courts find either of these Australians guilty I would accept it. If they handed them back to us and we found them guilty then I would also be happy. Until they get a fair trial thier human rights are being denied. Thier being held by your Army like some banana republic military junta is just intolerable. Last time I checked we were on the same side.

As for the issue of children. I accept that these things happen, I have been shot at by children. I have seen children bought in as prisoners. They may have been committed VC but when they are sitting there tied up and crying for thier mothers they just looked like children to me.... they should not be treated as adults. If people think 16 is old enough then lets start calling 16yo adults and 15yo children. As long as 18 is the current mark then these people are children, like it or not. Children should not be detained in this manner.....


anyway...I promise I'll calm down if you give us these 2 idiots back to sort out under our laws...

 

[davefoc]

Ok, I read through three pages of this stuff. So what do the it's-so-terrible folks want to do?

Let's say, all of a sudden you're in charge. You've got a slew of folks in custody pretty bent on committing terrorist acts against the US and others. Note that this is not an unreasonable assumption because the US has released the vast majority of people that were captured in Afghan so presumably the folks remaining represent some pretty serious threats in the view of the people holding them. As I understand it, many of the folks fighting in Afghanistan were criminals from their own countries released to go fight the Russians. So presumably some of these folks are pretty bad and their home countries may not be too anxious to get them back. There's probably some sociopaths mixed in that would probably just kill lots of people before they were eventually killed themselves whereever they're sent.

So let's hear the solution. You're in charge.

edited to add
Fool, I just wanted you to know I read your concerns about your two citizens and I sympathize. I think, it is at least possible that the Austrailian government isn't pressing to get them back because they're not sure what to do with them either. Am I wrong?

 

[a_unique_person]

Ok, I read through three pages of this stuff. So what do the it's-so-terrible folks want to do?

Let's say, all of a sudden you're in charge. You've got a slew of folks in custody pretty bent on committing terrorist acts against the US and others. Note that this is not an unreasonable assumption because the US has released the vast majority of people that were captured in Afghan so presumably the folks remaining represent some pretty serious threats in the view of the people holding them. As I understand it, many of the folks fighting in Afghanistan were criminals from their own countries released to go fight the Russians. So presumably some of these folks are pretty bad and their home countries may not be too anxious to get them back. There's probably some sociopaths mixed in that would probably just kill lots of people before they were eventually killed themselves whereever they're sent.

So let's hear the solution. You're in charge.

edited to add
Fool, I just wanted you to know I read your concerns about your two citizens and I sympathize. I think, it is at least possible that the Austrailian government isn't pressing to get them back because they're not sure what to do with them either. Am I wrong?

Given that we don't even know if anyone is guilty, they should at the very least be held in humane conditions.

The 'progress' of their trials should be on public record.

The line that I should just trust the army to do the right thing doesn't ring true to me.

 

[Guest]

Given that we don't even know if anyone is guilty, they should at the very least be held in humane conditions.

The 'progress' of their trials should be on public record.

The line that I should just trust the army to do the right thing doesn't ring true to me.

AUP, every organization that has examined the conditions at Camp X-Ray has said they are humane. Only in the minds of people who are looking for any excuse to hate America are the conditions deemed inhumane. It's like the John Edward show, you believe it is inhumane because you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary.


As for the juveniles, it is too bad I didn't leave for work one minute earlier today. I turned on NPR and caught the tail end of a report they were doing on this very topic. They called them "teens." I don't know if they said their ages at the top of the story. But they also reported that the teens were living in the military housing and not in Camp X-Ray. So they are living in the exact same houses as the troops stationed there. And they are attending school. They said the kids had been kidnapped by Al Queda and pressed into service.

As for the Australians and other nationals in custody, Fool, we can't trust every nation to properly prosecute or handle these guys. Some of them would probably just let them go.

Look. We have been attacked several times in the last ten years. The WTC in 1993, in which they tried to knock them down then. Two U.S. Embassies in Africa. The USS Cole. And then the WTC in 2001. We have lost a lot of lives to these scum. You understand? WE'VE HAD IT!

We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes while these guys have been operating freely and killing Americans by the score and by the thousands. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Instead of ballyhooing about the rights and comfort and amount of ice cream these prisoners are getting, we are all about the victims' rights now.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by LukeT
We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes while these guys have been operating freely and killing Americans by the score and by the thousands. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Instead of ballyhooing about the rights and comfort and amount of ice cream these prisoners are getting, we are all about the victims' rights now.

If you are tired of worrying about 'stepping on a few toes' then presumably those who are wronged by the US are entitled to 'step on a few US toes' and you won't see anything wrong with that at all or does that not follow from your 'logic'?

If you had any interest in saving the Iraqi people from an evil leader why then did the US sell Saddam Hussein with WOMD when it knew he was a murdering swine? Why then did the US support Noreiga when he was murdering innocent people in his country. If you are really all about victims rights, don't the innocent victims of the regimes supported by the US have rights too or is that another case where the law is different for Americans and the rest of the world?

When are you going to advocate dealing with American terrorists like the Mafia, in the same way you deal with 'terrorists' from other countries?

 

[Guest]

If you are tired of worrying about 'stepping on a few toes' then presumably those who are wronged by the US are entitled to 'step on a few US toes' and you won't see anything wrong with that at all or does that not follow from your 'logic'?

If you had any interest in saving the Iraqi people from an evil leader why then did the US sell Saddam Hussein with WOMD when it knew he was a murdering swine? Why then did the US support Noreiga when he was murdering innocent people in his country. If you are really all about victims rights, don't the innocent victims of the regimes supported by the US have rights too or is that another case where the law is different for Americans and the rest of the world?

When are you going to advocate dealing with American terrorists like the Mafia, in the same way you deal with 'terrorists' from other countries?

Not only are these things off topic, you have made a few assumptions about me that are incorrect, and a few misstatements of fact. Good score.

For sales of WMD to Iraq, see the couple dozen or so topics which have already been started here. Make sure you check who really are the top weapons sellers to Iraq. And then check to see who was opposed to our invasion of Iraq. You might find a coincidence or two.

As for the Mafia, what the...?

You sound to me like one of those people who feels we deserved to have thousands of civilians killed on 9/11.

 

[a_unique_person]

AUP, every organization that has examined the conditions at Camp X-Ray has said they are humane. Only in the minds of people who are looking for any excuse to hate America are the conditions deemed inhumane. It's like the John Edward show, you believe it is inhumane because you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary.


As for the juveniles, it is too bad I didn't leave for work one minute earlier today. I turned on NPR and caught the tail end of a report they were doing on this very topic. They called them "teens." I don't know if they said their ages at the top of the story. But they also reported that the teens were living in the military housing and not in Camp X-Ray. So they are living in the exact same houses as the troops stationed there. And they are attending school. They said the kids had been kidnapped by Al Queda and pressed into service.

So why are they treated like this? My point right from the start has been that they have been abused by both sides. The line of 'They did it first' is not valid.

As for the Australians and other nationals in custody, Fool, we can't trust every nation to properly prosecute or handle these guys. Some of them would probably just let them go.

Australia? You won't find a bigger toady to GWB than John Howard.

And we are to trust the US to do the right thing, when right from the start, every step has been taken by the US to circumvent the rule of law.

Look. We have been attacked several times in the last ten years. The WTC in 1993, in which they tried to knock them down then. Two U.S. Embassies in Africa. The USS Cole. And then the WTC in 2001. We have lost a lot of lives to these scum. You understand? WE'VE HAD IT!

And every year far more Americans die due to domestic crime. This is still dealt with following the rule of law

We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes while these guys have been operating freely and killing Americans by the score and by the thousands. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Instead of ballyhooing about the rights and comfort and amount of ice cream these prisoners are getting, we are all about the victims' rights now.

I have never raised the issue of the amount of ice-cream or anything else.

The 'no more Mr Nice Guy' hardly rings true, when you consider that a lot of the terrorism the US is facing is part of an ongoing process of global political strategy and tactics. There have been plenty of deaths attributable to questionable US policy around the world. Far more than the US has itself suffered.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by LukeT
Not only are these things off topic, you have made a few assumptions about me that are incorrect, and a few misstatements of fact. Good score.

Given that I quoted your own words and addressed the issues you raised it appears to be you who is off topic. You also did not state where my facts were wrong. Perhaps you might like to actually do so and back up your own arguments?

You specifically stated that 'We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes...'. The logical deduction is that you meant that as a threat because you had been wronged. If that is the case then the logic of your argument is that everyone else in the world who has been wronged by the US can also step on a few American toes. Perhaps you would care to state which assumptions I made about you are wrong.

For sales of WMD to Iraq, see the couple dozen or so topics which have already been started here. Make sure you check who really are the top weapons sellers to Iraq. And then check to see who was opposed to our invasion of Iraq. You might find a coincidence or two

Please note that I did not say that the US was the only supplier of WOMD to Sadam Hussein which would have to be the case for your statement to be factually correct.
The topic relates to children held at Guantanamo Bay. You however raised the issue of people attacking Americans in the post I quoted and I believe that America sold weapons and WOMD to some of those groups now attacking America which may just have something to do with the fact that youngster are being pressed into action around the world and turning up in Guantanamo Bay.

As for the Mafia, what the...?

If you start a war on terrorism acroos the world and send 'suspect' children to an area not subject to the America Constitutionit might be reasonable to ask why you don't treat your own domestic terrorists in the same way? The Mafia has been terrorising people in the US for decades yet their children are not treated like the children in Guantanamo Bay. The America Taliban was not incarcerated with the children in Guantanmo Bay. I understand that he is attempting a PhD during his negotiated prison term but that would be off topic as well.

You sound to me like one of those people who feels we deserved to have thousands of civilians killed on 9/1

Well you would be wrong then. It appears that when some of the consequences of your position are pointed out you respond with wild and unsubstantiated assertions. If that is the quality of your argument then all I can say is duh. Would you like to address the logic of your own arguments or are you content to continue to make wild assertions.

 

[RandFan]

If you start a war on terrorism acroos the world and send 'suspect' children to an area not subject to the America Constitutionit might be reasonable to ask why you don't treat your own domestic terrorists in the same way?

Why do you ignore so much that has already been addressed in this thread? Could you address the points about illegal combatants that has been documented thus far. You act as if the arguments presented don't even exist. It is frustrating when you won't acknowledge points made in the advancement of the argument. We have to go back to the begining to bring you up to speed.

 

[Guest]

So why are they treated like this? My point right from the start has been that they have been abused by both sides. The line of 'They did it first' is not valid.

I'm afraid it is a valid argument. Especially considering no one on your side of the argument has yet to offer a viable alternative to what to do with teens who have been trained to be terrorists against the U.S.

Australia? You won't find a bigger toady to GWB than John Howard.

And we are to trust the US to do the right thing, when right from the start, every step has been taken by the US to circumvent the rule of law.

Again, like Fool, you are confusing civil law with the rules of warfare.

And every year far more Americans die due to domestic crime. This is still dealt with following the rule of law

See my last comment.

I have never raised the issue of the amount of ice-cream or anything else.

The 'no more Mr Nice Guy' hardly rings true, when you consider that a lot of the terrorism the US is facing is part of an ongoing process of global political strategy and tactics. There have been plenty of deaths attributable to questionable US policy around the world. Far more than the US has itself suffered.

And here is the "blame America first" argument that is at the base of every complaint about the way the world is.

 

[Guest]

Given that I quoted your own words and addressed the issues you raised it appears to be you who is off topic. You also did not state where my facts were wrong. Perhaps you might like to actually do so and back up your own arguments?

I, nor anyone else for that matter, brought up the Mafia or WMD or Iraq until you came along.

The subject of Australian, or other non-juvenile prisoners, was brought by Fool and I have been trying to address him since it is at least related to Camp X-Ray.

You specifically stated that 'We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes...'. The logical deduction is that you meant that as a threat because you had been wronged. If that is the case then the logic of your argument is that everyone else in the world who has been wronged by the US can also step on a few American toes. Perhaps you would care to state which assumptions I made about you are wrong. Please note that I did not say that the US was the only supplier of WOMD to Sadam Hussein which would have to be the case for your statement to be factually correct.

What I meant about "stepping on toes" is that we took a blow in 1993 when the WTC was attacked. We took two more blows when our embassies were blown up. We took yet another blow when the USS Cole was blown up. And we took the last and final blow on 9/11. Enough is enough.

Now are you saying the U.S. is comparable in the "wrongs" it commits? Do we blow up skyskrapers?

Another "blame America first" argument. It is getting old.

And again, WMD isn't even part of this discussion. See the other dozen topics about it.

The topic relates to children held at Guantanamo Bay. You however raised the issue of people attacking Americans in the post I quoted and I believe that America sold weapons and WOMD to some of those groups now attacking America which may just have something to do with the fact that youngster are being pressed into action around the world and turning up in Guantanamo Bay. If you start a war on terrorism acroos the world and send 'suspect' children to an area not subject to the America Constitutionit might be reasonable to ask why you don't treat your own domestic terrorists in the same way? The Mafia has been terrorising people in the US for decades yet their children are not treated like the children in Guantanamo Bay. The America Taliban was not incarcerated with the children in Guantanmo Bay. I understand that he is attempting a PhD during his negotiated prison term but that would be off topic as well. Well you would be wrong then. It appears that when some of the consequences of your position are pointed out you respond with wild and unsubstantiated assertions. If that is the quality of your argument then all I can say is duh. Would you like to address the logic of your own arguments or are you content to continue to make wild assertions.

Wow. You have even manage to find a way to blame America for the fact that these kids were trained as terrorists. Amazing. The mind boggles.

 

[Clancie]

originally posted by Luke T

You have even manage to find a way to blame America for the fact that these kids were trained as terrorists.

Could you post a source for the "fact" that all the kids being held in Guantanamo were trained as terrorists?

From what I've read, the DOD has been very quiet on the specifics of why they are holding any of these detainees.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by LukeTI, nor anyone else for that matter, brought up the Mafia or WMD or Iraq until you came along.

I quoted your own words and responded to them directly amongst other things. You stated that 'We are tired of having to worry about stepping on a few toes while these guys have been operating freely and killing Americans by the score and by the thousands....' I responded to the initial part of your comment and raised the other matters because you also talked about the killing of Americans around the world and not just in Afghanistan. I also contrasted what was happening around the world and in Guantanamo with what America does to its own domestic terrorists. You clearly don't feel that is relevant to a debate about the issues of the children in Guantanamo.

What I meant about "stepping on toes" is that we took a blow in 1993 when the WTC was attacked. We took two more blows when our embassies were blown up. We took yet another blow when the USS Cole was blown up. And we took the last and final blow on 9/11. Enough is enough.

Now are you saying the U.S. is comparable in the "wrongs" it commits? Do we blow up skyskrapers?

Another "blame America first" argument. It is getting old.

And again, WMD isn't even part of this discussion. See the other dozen topics about it.
.

I notice that you still don't say what you actually mean by 'stepping on toes'. It implies a threat to bend the law and you have still not quoted one misstatement of fact I made. America is not the only country to have been attacked and some countries have suffered very grieviously indeed.

The point I am making is very simple. If you believe that you have the right to step on a few toes because you have been wronged then anyone who has been wronged by another country whether it is the US or not also has the right to step on a few toes. AS well as doing good ij many areas America has also supported a number of terrorist regimes around the world including Saddam Hussein's at one time and as such many innocent people in those countries have died including in Central America. Either that is a correct statenment or it is not. Under your own analysis that would give the people who had been wronged the right to step on a few American toes and would be just as wrong.

It is not clear to me that Americans fully understand what their government has been doing across the world for many years and how it undermined democracies and supported murderers like Noriega and in the processs many innocent people were killed. If you are entitled to revenge when your innocents (and British as well as many othe countries died on 11Sept) then my point is that others are entitled to do the same and that would be just as wrong. The reason for making the point is that I do not believe that you do have the right to step on toes as you put delicately put it because this would incite others to do the same to the detriment of world peace.

As such it is not a blame America first argument but an open your eyes to what you have done before it is too late argument. That I have pointed out American failings does not mean that I do not recognise that the UK, USSR, Pakistan, Indonesia, China, Argentina, Chile etc have also committed acts of abuse on their own and othe citizens. The US and the UK have recently initiated a war for dubious reasons in my opinion and that is why I am pointing it out at present. I have also highlighted the part played by the UK in the invasion on many occasions so cannot be accused of mentioning the US only.

The topic is children at Guantanamo. Some of the recent appropriation of funds was for the extension of the facilities in Guantanamo presumably to take fighters from Iraq including possibly children to that camp. If you don't want to talk about the so-called reason for that war then you don't have to.

Wow. You have even manage to find a way to blame America for the fact that these kids were trained as terrorists. Amazing. The mind boggles.

I see. You appear to be unwilling to even consider the part played by American foreign policies over the decades in relation to many of the problems around the world such as what is happening in the Middle East and how that might have a part to play in why the children in Guantanmo might actually be there. I haven't seen anyone here claiming that all the world's problems have been caused by the US but you do appear to have a tendency to take refuge in the other extreme. Unless you are prepared to accept what America has actually done around the world as well as other countries then the debate cannot even start properly and you are going to keep on repeating the mistakes of previous years. I think that is a pity and if you imagine that you have suffered the fina blow then while I hope that you are correct I fear that you are not and the UK ad the US have just made the situation worse.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Why do you ignore so much that has already been addressed in this thread? Could you address the points about illegal combatants that has been documented thus far. You act as if the arguments presented don't even exist. It is frustrating when you won't acknowledge points made in the advancement of the argument. We have to go back to the begining to bring you up to speed.

Please tell me exactly what you have done to bring me up to speed. I didn't realise that you have to address all the points that have been made in a thread when commenting on a specific comment by another poster. Is that what you do? Let me see - on your first post on this thread you said

'Since we are moving over here I would like to move my repsonse over here also (at least part of it).



When you contrast treatment of the detainees with the treatment of prisoners in nearly all other Muslim countries (dismemberment, torture, disfigurement, murder, etc.) then I can't imagine how it could possibly have any such negative historical context.'

You then went on to say
'__________________
To counter any misconceptions about Sir Winston Churchill, the following are quotes from him regarding war.

"Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valour, and be in readiness for the conflict; for it is better for us to perish in battle than to look upon the outrage of our nation and our altar."

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, This was their finest hour." -- Speech delivered to the House of Commons on June 18, 1940 following the collapse of France. Many thought Britain would follow. But knowing that "Hitler will have to break us in this island or lose the war" Churchill challenged the British people to uncommon efforts to win the Battle of Britain.

In response to suggestions that Brittian Surrender,

:"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.''

Many more to come...'
So not keeping to the subject and ignoring much of what was said before. I see that you don't follow your own advice RandFan.

The way a country treats its prisoners says a lot about that country and the detention of children under sixteen years old in Guantanamo Bay where the American constitution does not operate is in my view barbaric. If thee was something to be proud about in these case why will the American military not specify exactly how old the youngest child is? What are they afraid of? Do human rights not matter in the US any more?