Chief Justice Moore refuses to remove 10 commandments

[renata]

Just caught a snippet of the press conference.

He refused to remove the monument, and is appealing to the Supreme Court. His main point seemed to be that he was entrusted to protect the laws of Alabama, that federal courts undermine the foundation of the country, and that as God was the basis for laws, he will not remove the 10 commandments.

Waiting for a news story and a transcript.


Edited to add the story

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=3&u=/ap/20030814/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments

The chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court said Thursday he will not remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state judicial building, defying a federal court order to remove the granite monument.

"I have no intention of removing the monument," Roy Moore said at a news conference. "This I cannot and will not do."

Moore said he will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) to stop any removal.

His decision came six days before the Aug. 20 deadline for the 5,300-pound monument to be removed from the building's rotunda, where it is in clear sight of visitors coming in the main entrance.

U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson of Montgomery, who ruled the monument violates the constitution's ban on government promotion of religion, had said fines of about $5,000 a day would have been imposed against the state if the monument were not removed.

......

He said the "acknowledgment of almighty god" is the foundation of the country and its legal system and referred to Alabama's motto: "We Dare Defend Our Rights."

Moore said he would file his first pleading with the U.S. Supreme Court on Friday.

When elected chief justice three years ago, Moore was already known nationally as the "Ten Commandments judge" for his legal fight to keep a hand-carved Ten Commandments display posted on the wall of his courtroom in Gadsden, where he was a circuit judge.

In office as chief justice, he had the gray granite Ten Commandments monument moved into the judicial building in the middle of the night on July 31, 2001, without announcing the event to the public or to the news media. He did inform a Christian television ministry, which filmed the installation and used it on the TV program.
.....

Moore said he had the monument installed because he believes the Ten Commandments to be the moral foundation of American law.

....

Moore had testified during the trial that one reason he became interested in the public display of the Ten Commandments was because of what he called a decline of moral values in America, which he blamed on federal court rulings concerning prayer in school and other issues.

He also contended the federal judge had no authority to tell the state's chief justice to remove the monument.

Moore appealed Thompson's order, but a three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously against Moore, saying in part that his argument echoed state's rights claims of segregationists such as Alabama's Gov. George C. Wallace in the 1960s.


.....

 

[Tmy]

Cheese n crackers!!! The whole reason we have such a big controling Fed Govt is because of the actions of these loser hick states. Somebody has to regulate Cletus n' company cause they cant control themsleves.

 

[Upchurch]

I don't understand how a man could get to be a Chief Justice and have such little understanding of what this country is all about.

 

[Marc]

Just caught a snippet of the press conference.

He refused to remove the monument, and is appealing to the Supreme Court. His main point seemed to be that he was entrusted to protect the laws of Alabama, that federal courts undermine the foundation of the country, and that as God was the basis for laws, he will not remove the 10 commandments.

Waiting for a news story and a transcript.

Pretty much as everyone expected.

So federal courts, in upholding federal law, are undermining the foundation of the country?

One of his fellow judges had a very good question for him

That was the question on the mind of some of the state's trial court judges at a recent meeting in Gulf Shores. "If you refuse to obey a lawful court order, what do you expect will happen to those orders we issue," one judge asked Moore. "Well, this is different," Moore is said to have answered.

 

[Tmy]

I don't understand how a man could get to be a Chief Justice and have such little understanding of what this country is all about.

See what happens when you have affirmative action! You get unqualified people placed in these jobs.

 

[Richard G]

I applaud the man. The Federal court order is an unlawfull one. Alabamas Constitution explicitly acknowledges God, and so does the U.S. Constitution. You may not like that, but its a fact.

 

[Upchurch]

I applaud the man. The Federal court order is an unlawfull one. Alabamas Constitution explicitly acknowledges God, and so does the U.S. Constitution. You may not like that, but its a fact.

???

The only reference to God in the U.S. Constitution is the phrase "In the year of our lord", which was just their way of saying "AD". The Constitution doesn't acknowledge God.

 

[Tmy]

Alabamas Constitution explicitly acknowledges God, and so does the U.S. Constitution. You may not like that, but its a fact.

Where in the US constitution does it acknowledge God?

 

[Upchurch]

I applaud the man. The Federal court order is an unlawfull one.

I'm sorry to double post this one, but this is bugging me. What law did the federal court break with this order?

I don't know about Alabama, but one of the main founding principles of this country was that religion cannot be mandated by the state. at all. ever. The founding fathers put that in the first clause of the first ammendment to protect the country from this very kind of thing.

 

[arcticpenguin]

USA/Today Op/Ed: Alabama monument mocks Supreme Court's authority

It's nice to see a reasonable point of view in the mainstream press.

 

[Tmy]

Why is a Fed judge making decisons about a new courthouses decore??? More examples of silly Fed spending. How much did this thing cost.

 

[Tricky]

I applaud the man. The Federal court order is an unlawfull one. Alabamas Constitution explicitly acknowledges God, and so does the U.S. Constitution. You may not like that, but its a fact.

Richard G is correct that the most recent Alabama Constitution (written in 1901) does in fact mention God in the preamble.

We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama:

No mention of the Christian God. It could be any god. In fact, in section 3 it specifically states:

That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles.

It seems that the original framers quite specifically wanted to guard against actions such as Judge Moore's

Of course, in addition to being 102 years old, the Alabama Constitution has more than 700 amendments. That anyone can claim to glean a clear purpose out of such a document is beyond belief.

 

[Upchurch]

Why is a Fed judge making decisons about a new courthouses decore??? More examples of silly Fed spending. How much did this thing cost.

It wasn't about court house decore, it's about establishment of state-backed religion.

 

[Suddenly]

Why is a Fed judge making decisons about a new courthouses decore??? More examples of silly Fed spending. How much did this thing cost.

The monument? I'll guess it cost quite a bit.

 

[pgwenthold]

I just don't understand how anyone can espouse the "ten commandments" and not see that they are establishing a preferred religion. Who's version will you chose, protestant or catholic? Since they are different, chosing one over the other indicates a preference for one religion over another. It is trivially so.

A lot of times people defend the government support of religious stuff on the grounds that the constitution only forbids favoring one religion over another, as opposed to religion in general. Although this is not really a justified claim (the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall pass no law establishing religion ..." not "establishing _a_ religion..."), this doesn't even survive that test. This is obviously a case of the government chosing one religion over another.

FWIW, if anything the Catholic version of the TC, which skips the commandment against worshiping graven images, is more consistent with our legal system than the protestant version. I mean, the US? Outlawing the worship of idols? Yeah, right. We friggin _live_ for idol worship here! Cars, money, Britney Spears...

 

[blackadder65738]

I believe Moore bought the monument himself.

He was elected to his office, despite being unqualified according to most legal authorities. Wasn't there a huge thread on this already, or are we starting again so it doesn't get crapped all over by Jedi Knight?

 

[Richard G]

The Founding Fathers intent was to prohibit the goverment from controlling, or preventing the people from excercising religion. The opposite is occuring today, with courts trying to squash, and ban any display of faith or religious belief.

The Declaration of Independence, the foundation of the Constitution, clearly mentions God.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Amendment 1 of the Constitution also says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Excercising religion, or the free expression of it cannot be infringed upon by the Federal Goverment.

The people of Alabama have made it clear in their states constitution that they recognize, and affirm God. That cannot be denied, infringed, or trampled on by the Federal Goverment. It is against the Federal, and State constitution to do so.

 

[arcticpenguin]

The Founding Fathers intent was to prohibit the goverment from controlling, or preventing the people from excercising religion. The opposite is occuring today, with courts trying to squash, and ban any display of faith or religious belief.

Bullcookies. They are only trying to ban those displays which entangle religion with the government. You, and Judge Moore, are free to pray in your own homes at any time. Also please tell me if I would be free to put up religious displays of my choosing in the Alabama supreme court building.

The Declaration of Independence, the foundation of the Constitution, clearly mentions God.

Nature and nature's God

Unusual wording, what? You really should retract your claim until you know something about Thomas Jefferson's brand of Deism.

Also, why do you consider the Declaration of Independence to be "the foundation of the Constitution"?


Amendment 1 of the Constitution also says

Excercising religion, or the free expression of it cannot be infringed upon by the Federal Goverment.

The people of Alabama have made it clear in their states constitution that they recognize, and affirm God. That cannot be denied, infringed, or trampled on by the Federal Goverment. It is against the Federal, and State constitution to do so.

Your interpretation is at odds with 200+ years of American history and judicial rulings.

 

[toddjh]

Excercising religion, or the free expression of it cannot be infringed upon by the Federal Goverment.

I would agree with you that is the meaning of the actual text, but it is at odds which the way the first amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court for decades.

The people of Alabama have made it clear in their states constitution that they recognize, and affirm God. That cannot be denied, infringed, or trampled on by the Federal Goverment. It is against the Federal, and State constitution to do so.

Here's where you're wrong. The Alabama state constitution forbids things like the monument. Even ignoring the first amendment, take a look:

That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles.

The monument is clearly in violation of the "no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect" and "no one shall be compelled...to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship" clauses.

Jeremy

 

[Tricky]

Apologies for reposting an old post, but I made a few points here that I don't want to have to rewrite.

It is obvious to anyone that studies The Bible that the Ten Commandments are not the basis of our legal system at all. In fact, the ones Judge Moore posted are not even the Ten Commandments. Look it up in the bible. Here's a summary I made earlier.
*********
Many Chrstians are unaware that the famous Ten Commandments they see on leaflets all the time are not the ones on the tablets. Most people refer to this little speech by God in Exodus 20 as the "Ten Commandments"

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [1] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

In actuality the Ten Commandments were the covenant with Israel given to Moses on the mountain as described in Exodus 34:28 That is where the words "Ten Commandments" are actually used, and they are considerably different from the list above. There is some overlap, though, and it still looks like God is only speaking to the Israelites. Does this mean that the "popular" Ten Commandments are only for Jews?

14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.


Sounds to me like God is forbidding dealings with people of other faiths and also forbidding interreligious marriages. Do you subscribe to this "commandment"?

17 Do not make cast idols.

Never says don't worship them. Just don't make them. (but I'll let this one slide)

18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.


Whole lot of rules here. Lots of animal sacrifices. Also, it sounds like only firstborn sons need to be baptized. What did YOU do for the month of Abib this year. I hope you didn't appear in front of God empty-handed.


21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

You are expressly forbidden to work on your garden on the Sabbath.


22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD , the God of Israel.
24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

Um... I hope you have marked all those things on your calendar.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."


Lots of dietary stuff here. It appears that God is yeast intolerant.

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.


As you can easily see, the popular version of the Ten Commandments is almost unrecognizable from the actual Ten Commandments in The Bible.

**********
So okay, let's look at the popular version of the Ten Commandments.

1. I am the Lord your God,
You Shall have no Other gods Before Me.

But we can have others after? Is he condemning all other religions? Certainly he is at least saying all other religions are wrong. Do you do this?

2. You Shall Not Make for Yourself Graven Images

Probably the most widely disregarded commandment of all time. Go to any church and see if there are any graven images. Is Michaelangelo going to hell for this?
edited to add:
How about graven images of the Ten Commandments? Oops.

3. Do Not Take God's Name in Vain.

Of course, the words "in vain" are somewhat ambiguous. Most people think this means "do not use God's name in a curse", but it could also apply to adding "in the name of God" to anything. Some pretty horrible things have been earnestly asked for "in the name of God".

4. Keep Holy the Lord's Day

Um... which one is the Lord's Day? The one that is named after the pagan Sun god? Or the one that is named for the pagan god Saturn? And what does it mean to keep it "holy". If you stop by a convenience store on the Sabbath, then you are breaking God's commandment. Also working in your garden is forbidden (see above). Truly, only Orthodox Jews are really sincere about this one.

5. Honor your Father and Mother

Always? Even if your father is a pedophile, you shold honor him by succumbing to his wishes? Generally a good rule, but LOTS of exceptions to this.

6. Do Not Kill

Another one that tends to cause lots of arguments. Also, I can't find it anywhere in the bible. Lots of people mean it to say, "thou shalt not murder", but the concept of murder is fuzzy. If you kill a complete stranger simply because your countries are at war, is that not murder? Most Christians give lots of exceptions to this rule.

7. Do Not Commit Adultery

Another one that causes a lot of confusion, technically adultry is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. " If unmarried couples do it, it is fornication, which is apparently less bothersome in the eyes of the Lord. Along with the "graven images" one, this ranks very high as one of the commandments most frequently violated by Christians.

8. Do Not Steal

This one I can pretty much agree with wholeheartedly. That's why I get so upset when televangelests wheedle money out of the most vulnerable members of society. In my mind, lying to get money from someone is the same as stealing. Oh yeah. Cheating on your income taxes is stealing too.

9. Do Not Lie

Another usually good one. But do you ever tell a "little white lie" to avoid hurting someone's feelings? ("Your veggie loaf is delicious, Honey"). I feel this one has some very important exceptions.
("So, Yankee dog, do you know the location of your troops?")

10. Don't covet your neighbor's property

(Lots of people just say "wife" but the Bible mentions oxen, donkeys, and yes, even slaves.)
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(Obviously if a manservent "belongs" to your neighbor, then your neighbor is a slaveowner).